The Tammy difference

[Marionette]

Looking at Tammy, it strikes me that the main ways in which it differed from the girls' comics that came before it are that

a) the heroines are almost exclusively working class, with upper class girls generally depicted as mean and nasty, and

b) the heroines often come from broken homes; either they are actually orphans living in an adopted family who hate them for no obvious reason, or they are in some way separated from their true, loving family.

As I don't have extensive experience of girls' comic before 1971 I'm not sure how true this is, so I'd be interested in the thoughts of those with more knowledge.

[Tammyfan]

From what I've read from a variety of sources, Tammy was a revolutionary pioneer designed to break boys' and girls' comics out of 'the slough of despond' as Pat Mills calls it. It did so by being dark, cruel, and torturing her heroines but never breaking their spirits. No, they were always determined to survive and triumph over the adversities they suffered. By being the sort of comic that parents would complain about, which Mills took as the sign that they'd got it right. And sales on the early Tammy showed that they had got it right. So the early Tammy was filled with Cinderella stories, slave stories, cruelty to animals, headmistresses whose disclipine was dictatorial, and other types of adversity.

Later Mills tried the same formula on boys' comics to bring them out of the slough of despond. Battle could be described as the comic that was to boys' comics what Tammy was to girls' comics. And it worked - Battle was a big success. Mind you, Mills soon realised that not all the formulas in girls' comics would work in boys'. For example, one Battle story, The Terror behind the Bamboo Curtain, was his one and only stab at the slave story in a boys' comic. The slave story was always a winner in girls' comics, but the unpopularity of TBBC showed that slave stories did not appeal to boys. Oh, well, live and learn.

When Jinty started, she followed in the same mould as Tammy in being dark and cruel. But she soon moved off on a sports, fantasy and SF tangent that was hugely popular and what she is best remembered for.

But by the late 1970s all of Tammy's cruel streaks had disappeared. Only Bella and Molly remained from former times. This was due to changes in editorship and counter-revolution setting in against the revolution.

[colcool007]

...The slave story was always a winner in girls' comics, but the unpopularity of TBBC showed that slave stories did not appeal to boys. Oh, well, live and learn...

Sorry Tammy, but I disagree with that statement as there are several stories that were of the "slave" style. Chained To His sword in Wizard is one that immediately comes to mind. There is another one where one character spent all his time in a wooden collar. It's name escapes me, but I am sure it was drawn by Ron Smith, so that possibly makes it a Hotspur story. (Most of Ron's work for DCT was in Hotspur, so that is why I make that assumption).

[Phoenix]

The serial you are trying to remember, Colin, is The Boy With The Wooden Collar in The Hotspur in 1968. It was set in the Fifteenth Century, and the English boy is a slave of the Mongols. It was repeated in the same paper in 1975. There were also a couple of similar serials in Mandy. The Girl With The Wooden Collar, set in 1320, appeared in 1972, and one called The Girl In The Iron Collar, about a girl called Rowena, appeared earlier than that, but I can't offhand remember exactly when. Also with a historical perspective in 1968, Bunty ran the serial Silva The Slave Girl, which was set in Ancient Rome.

[Phoenix]

When in doubt, always go back to the primary sources! The Girl In The Iron Collar appeared in Mandy 22 (Jun. 17 1967) - 31 (Aug. 19 1967). Set in 871, Rowena, a young Saxon girl, accidentally betrayed Edmund, the King of East Anglia, to the Vikings, who then killed him. She was punished for this by the Witan Council, who condemned her to wear an iron band round her neck, and banished her from her village. However, she found the triple-crowned cross of the Angles where King Edmund had hidden it, without which nobody could claim to be their King, and with the help of the monks of Ely, eventually Alfred of Wessex takes up his rightful role as King of the Saxons. He personally removes Rowena's collar, pardons her, and gives her untold riches, which she shares with everybody in her village.

[Marionette]

From what I've read from a variety of sources, Tammy was a revolutionary pioneer designed to break boys' and girls' comics out of 'the slough of despond' as Pat Mills calls it. It did so by being dark, cruel, and torturing her heroines but never breaking their spirits. No, they were always determined to survive and triumph over the adversities they suffered. By being the sort of comic that parents would complain about, which Mills took as the sign that they'd got it right. And sales on the early Tammy showed that they had got it right. So the early Tammy was filled with Cinderella stories, slave stories, cruelty to animals, headmistresses whose disclipine was dictatorial, and other types of adversity.

Yes, I'm aware of what Tammy was like. I'm currently in the midst of reading through the entire series. What I was asking about was how it differed from what came before. What was the nature of the "slough of despond" that Tammy was reacting against?

[Phoenix]

What was the nature of the "slough of despond" that Tammy was reacting against?

I know very little about Tammy or Jinty, to be fair, or indeed any other non-Thomson girls' story paper, but if the content of Tammy, as described by Tammyfan, is actually the reaction to Pat Mills's comment that she claims it to be, then presumably Mills saw the then current output in comics for girls as being bland, trivial pap with undemanding themes, and with unexciting storylines that were incapable of gripping or challenging their readers in any meaningful way. Perhaps, rather than the story papers, it was actually Mills himself who was in his personal, rather than Bunyanesque, slough of despond.

[colcool007]

The serial you are trying to remember, Colin, is The Boy With The Wooden Collar in The Hotspur in 1968. It was set in the Fifteenth Century, and the English boy is a slave of the Mongols. It was repeated in the same paper in 1975. There were also a couple of similar serials in Mandy. The Girl With The Wooden Collar, set in 1320, appeared in 1972, and one called The Girl In The Iron Collar, about a girl called Rowena, appeared earlier than that, but I can't offhand remember exactly when. Also with a historical perspective in 1968, Bunty ran the serial Silva The Slave Girl, which was set in Ancient Rome.

Thank you for that. I was almost positive that the name was The Boy With The Wooden Collar but as I have too few Hotspur issues, I could not confirm it. And I preferred to wait until someone could confirm it.

[philcom55]

From what I can remember Mills and his co-conspirator John Wagner learned their craft on DC Thomson's girls' comics before they went south, where it seems to have been IPC's bland late-Sixties output rather than Bunty and Mandy that really filled them with despair. Thus the creative fires which forged Tammy, Battle, Action and Misty (not to mention 2000AD) could be said to have been ignited years before in Dundee.

- Phil R.

[Marionette]

From what I can remember Mills and his co-conspirator John Wagner learned their craft on DC Thomson's girls' comics before they went south, where it seems to have been IPC's bland late-Sixties output rather than Bunty and Mandy that really filled them with despair. Thus the creative fires which forged Tammy, Battle, Action and Misty (not to mention 2000AD) could be said to have been ignited years before in Dundee.

- Phil R.

Interesting that Thomson's beat IPC to the market for supernatural themed girls' comics with Spellbound appearing two years before Misty (and arguably doing a better job), although IPC were slightly ahead on SF with Jinty, even if the latter took a while to establish its theme. Why Spellbound crashed and burned after a year, when it was such a strong package, is a mystery to me.

[Tammyfan]

From what I've read from a variety of sources, Tammy was a revolutionary pioneer designed to break boys' and girls' comics out of 'the slough of despond' as Pat Mills calls it. It did so by being dark, cruel, and torturing her heroines but never breaking their spirits. No, they were always determined to survive and triumph over the adversities they suffered. By being the sort of comic that parents would complain about, which Mills took as the sign that they'd got it right. And sales on the early Tammy showed that they had got it right. So the early Tammy was filled with Cinderella stories, slave stories, cruelty to animals, headmistresses whose disclipine was dictatorial, and other types of adversity.

Yes, I'm aware of what Tammy was like. I'm currently in the midst of reading through the entire series. What I was asking about was how it differed from what came before. What was the nature of the "slough of despond" that Tammy was reacting against?

Pat Mills talks about it in his article "The Heroine's Progress", which appeared in Comic Heroes March 2011. The slough of despond means the publisher's lack of energy and empathy with the audience and creators. Mills blames the slough of despond for the decline in British comics (though there must have been other factors, such as inflation). Battle, Tammy, Misty were examples where he tried to pull comics out of the slough, but they seemed to sink back in. According to Mills the slough of despond was responsible for the loss of Pat Davidson, one of the industry's best writers, and he thinks it was another factor in the decline of the comics. I think she wanted to be credited, but they wouldn't allow it.

On other threads we've been discussing the decline of June, Lucky's Living Doll, the cancellation of Spellbound and Robert MacGilivray switching from IPC to DCT. Could it be the slough of despond?

[Tammyfan]

...The slave story was always a winner in girls' comics, but the unpopularity of TBBC showed that slave stories did not appeal to boys. Oh, well, live and learn...

Sorry Tammy, but I disagree with that statement as there are several stories that were of the "slave" style. Chained To His sword in Wizard is one that immediately comes to mind. There is another one where one character spent all his time in a wooden collar. It's name escapes me, but I am sure it was drawn by Ron Smith, so that possibly makes it a Hotspur story. (Most of Ron's work for DCT was in Hotspur, so that is why I make that assumption).

Sorry, wrong type of slave. The slave story in girls' comics means a group of girls who are being held captive for slave labour or some other sinister purpose (such as being held hostage or being trained for some plot), or just being generally mistreated. The prison can be a school, a farm, a shop, a reformatory, a camp, a factory, or a secret hideout. In one case a restaurant was used. Often (but not always) there is a mystery attached, and unravelling the mystery is the key to the girls' freedom. Examples include Slaves of the Nightmare Factory (Girl), Slaves of the Hot Stove (Tammy), Slaves of the Mill (Mandy), Tammy's infamous Slaves of 'War Orphan Farm', The Worst School in the World (Judy), The School for Unwanted Ones (Bunty) and Merry at Misery House (Jinty).

The mystery in Terror behind the Bamboo Curtain was: what was the connection between the booby-trapped bamboo curtain and a nest of brainwashed soldiers? But mystery did not appeal to boys who preferred action and adventure, so TBBC did not work out.

[colcool007]

In that case we have Behind The Crimson Door, a football series where the players were treated by a unknown system to make them better players. And all the team but one were treated by this system. This was in the Victor in the late 70's.

Another Victor serial was illustrated by Bert Vandeput, but I am beggared if I can recall the name! The team were relative unknowns who had been kidnapped over a quarter of a century earlier and had been treated with some form of cryogenic suspension. A sort of Univeral Soldier for football if you prefer!

The mystery/slave element for boys has been played out in several comics serials, but most were associated with action so that the mystery/slave element seems to be secondary whereas with the girls serials, it seems to be the prime mover of the readers' interest.

[Phoenix]

So the early Tammy was filled with Cinderella stories, slave stories, cruelty to animals, headmistresses whose disclipine was dictatorial, and other types of adversity.

Unfortunately, Tammyfan, the misunderstanding, if such it is, has been caused by you. In the quotation above, taken from your first reply to Marionette, in which you list various types of adversity tackled in Tammy, you do not say that you see different categories within, or perhaps that should be under, the umbrella title slave stories.

Sorry, wrong type of slave. The slave story in girls' comics means a group of girls who are being held captive for slave labour or some other sinister purpose (such as being held hostage or being trained for some plot), or just being generally mistreated. The prison can be a school, a farm, a shop, a reformatory, a camp, a factory, or a secret hideout.

You could have added their own home. If we accept the premise that a slave is a slave, then any individual or group of individuals forced to do things they definitely don't want to do, whatever the threat if they don't comply, individually or collectively they are slaves, and you would then have to accept that the example that Colin offered, The Boy With The Wooden Collar, is a serial about a slave. I can offer Dozy Danny, another example from The Hotspur that Colin will certainly recall. The adjective dozy does not refer to any lack of function in the boy's brain department, rather it refers to the fact that eleven-year-old Danny Lorimer is constantly nodding off during the school day. The reason is that his stepfather forces him to get up at four o'clock in the morning every day to get the equipment and ingredients ready, and then suitably heated up, and then put his back into making many dozens of coal briquettes in moulds 6'' long by 5'' wide, and then five dozen bundles of firewood. Any perceived failures on Danny's part, such as putting them all neatly in the shed instead of ready for sale on his stepfather's cart, are punished by a clattering round the head that often knocks him to the floor. Whichever way you look at it, that is slavery. Almost inevitably, he is caned for arriving at school late as well, to add insult to injury.

[Tammyfan]

So the early Tammy was filled with Cinderella stories, slave stories, cruelty to animals, headmistresses whose disclipine was dictatorial, and other types of adversity.

Unfortunately, Tammyfan, the misunderstanding, if such it is, has been caused by you. In the quotation above, taken from your first reply to Marionette, in which you list various types of adversity tackled in Tammy, you do not say that you see different categories within, or perhaps that should be under, the umbrella title slave stories.

Sorry, wrong type of slave. The slave story in girls' comics means a group of girls who are being held captive for slave labour or some other sinister purpose (such as being held hostage or being trained for some plot), or just being generally mistreated. The prison can be a school, a farm, a shop, a reformatory, a camp, a factory, or a secret hideout.

You could have added their own home. If we accept the premise that a slave is a slave, then any individual or group of individuals forced to do things they definitely don't want to do, whatever the threat if they don't comply, individually or collectively they are slaves, and you would then have to accept that the example that Colin offered, The Boy With The Wooden Collar, is a serial about a slave. I can offer Dozy Danny, another example from The Hotspur that Colin will certainly recall. The adjective dozy does not refer to any lack of function in the boy's brain department, rather it refers to the fact that eleven-year-old Danny Lorimer is constantly nodding off during the school day. The reason is that his stepfather forces him to get up at four o'clock in the morning every day to get the equipment and ingredients ready, and then suitably heated up, and then put his back into making many dozens of coal briquettes in moulds 6'' long by 5'' wide, and then five dozen bundles of firewood. Any perceived failures on Danny's part, such as putting them all neatly in the shed instead of ready for sale on his stepfather's cart, are punished by a clattering round the head that often knocks him to the floor. Whichever way you look at it, that is slavery. Almost inevitably, he is caned for arriving at school late as well, to add insult to injury.

Pat Mills sees three lynchpins for the girls comics: the Cinderella story (a girl being exploited and mistreated by parents or guardians), the slave story (a group of girls being used as slaves), and the friendship story. He says that if he started a girls' comic now he would start with them. So I took the categories from there. Sorry if the differences between the Cinderella story and the slave story were not clear enough the first time.