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A sex change for Thor 
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starscape wrote:
It's becoming a bit to-and-fro this argument, so best leave it for a while. But I maintain the majority of people that don't want Thor to change to female would be the same people that don't want Wonder Woman to be male, Superman to be not from Krypton, Shazam to change to Marvelman's costume (and no, that's not creating a new character called Marvelman heavily influenced by Shazam), Luke Cage to reveal he's been lying about being from New York and actually coming from York, or anything else that dramatically changes a character from its history.

Can I just say that I would absolutely love it if Marvel published a story revealing that Luke Cage actually grew up in York.

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Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:41 pm
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starscape wrote:
I'd mostly agree with you there, Lew.
Which bit do you disagree with?


Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:05 pm
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starscape wrote:
I'd mostly agree with you there, Lew. But read Marionette's post that I was replying to where it is stated that objecting to "a character being replaced by a version that is black or female is quite specifically racist/misogynist".


I thought you were replying to me, given that your comment directly followed mine and you began it by saying "Yes, but it doesn't make readers anti-nomadic if they had preferred Steve Rogers to stay Cap." when I was the only person who'd mentioned Nomad.

Anyway, I really must get back to the drawing board so forgive me if I don't reply for a while.

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Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:17 pm
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Just part of a big general conversation. Not sure I've got much of a reply. It certainly can work, even when it sounds terrible. Who'd a thought Bucky coming back as Cap would be a success?

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Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:35 pm
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starscape wrote:
I'd mostly agree with you there, Lew. But read Marionette's post that I was replying to where it is stated that objecting to "a character being replaced by a version that is black or female is quite specifically racist/misogynist". I would say it is mostly objecting to a character being replaced. That's the reason! (due to being what may be called unadventurous). I didn't like Spider-Man joining the Avengers. Or Wolverine. Or Daredevil. But it's not because they are white, male, mutant, blind or even, listen bud, coz they've got radioactive blood. I probably got it right there (for me) but got Bucky drastically wrong.

The reporting also seems to have misled then on Thor. From what I read, it was Thor ("This is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is THOR"). That is, the big blonde guy turned into a woman*. What is coming out now seems very different from that.


*which worked for Loki as he is quite capable of using every trick in the book for his schemes but I didn't like when he morphed into the trick-less boy.


I accept that you are an old stick-in-the-mud who doesn't like any change in their stories. The problem is that the old school standard of just about any American comics character is white, straight, and male, which makes it very difficult to bring in any diversity to their lineup. It's near impossible to break a new character in that has any staying power, so Marvel are attempting to grow the readership for new characters out of established titles.

The thing is, you can say "But it's not because they are white, male", but what you are in fact saying is that you prefer the same old white, male, hetero characters over any that are minority or female. Your reason doesn't have to be "RACISM!" to make that true.

Oh, and apparently Wolverine is going to be spending the next six months dead for tax purposes. So it's just as well they got the obligatory crossover in with Ms. Marvel. Which was so amaze. And something weird is going on with Iron Man. I have no clue on that.

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Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:48 pm
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Here's a more light-hearted take on things:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/marvel ... ded,36507/

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Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:56 pm
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Marionette wrote:
what you are in fact saying is that you prefer the same old white, male, hetero characters over any that are minority or female

I didn't say that at all. I used to collect Power Man comics, loved Black Panther as a kid, wished Rhodey had stayed Iron Man (don't like Stark - never have) and the Scarlet Witch was absolutely central to my favourite period of the Avengers (along with Wasp and Jocasta and particularly Moondragon and Hellcat). I've also enjoyed (as I'm a fan of super-teams) Ms Marvel (Carol Danvers - of which I got every Bronze Age issue of her series), Valkyrie in the Defenders, Power Girl in the JSA and collected Dazzler's series. Kitty Pryde massively changed the X-Men for the better. And who doesn't want to see a Black Widow movie? Who objects to Amanda Waller? Who doesn't think Death of the Phoenix wasn't one of Marvel's best and the jumping-the-shark Return of Phoenix best not done.

I didn't mention anything about sexuality. If Peter Parker suddenly becomes gay, I'd object. It's not in keeping with his character's history. If Karnak or a hero without an obvious sexual history (how about one of the young Robins growing up?) is revealed to be gay, no problem. In fact, virtually anyone of the new 52 could be as they've changed so much. Guess what? Yep, I didn't like it. Give me the old Earth-1 JLA, Earth-2 JSA and Supergirl not throwing up blood. Stick-in-the-mud I may be but if you are looking for a racist, sexist, homophobe, you're barking up the wrong tree there. In fact, much as I am glad Luke Cage is a big player in the MU, I'm also disappointed that he's not Power Man, complete with yellow shirt and tiara.

Now, from what's been revealed, that the female Thor isn't Thor with a sex-change and that he is still around but that the female Thor is a woman with Thor's power (so not really Thor as was first stated), I'm also a lot more open to the story. But, the original way it was presented, that Marvel's Thor becomes a woman really was jumping the shark. I can accept Cap retiring and someone taking over (I think Misty Knight would be a cracking shout). But if it sounds ridiculous, like the Thor rumour, well, that's what forums are for.

The lack of equality is probably something to do with kids wanting to read about themselves. Therefore, girls comics are full of girls and boys full of males. There's probably something even deeper as to why girls comics tend to be girls and teens, whilst boys are full of men but I'm no psychologist. I guess now that superhero comics aren't really read by kids, they can be a bit more representative without losing their readership. I've no problem with that. Just don't destroy the characters and continuity like they did with Earth-2 (it's more Marvel's Counter Earth than the JSA Earth-2) or accept that fans that read the old guard might not be fans anymore.

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Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:05 pm
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I didn't see any news saying Thor was changing sex, unless some website made it up. It was always going to be a woman taking over the role and becoming a new Thor. Here's the latest, with character sketches:

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2014/07/dauterman-reveals-thor-and-thor-odinson-character-models/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:17 am
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tony ingram wrote:
starscape wrote:
It's becoming a bit to-and-fro this argument, so best leave it for a while. But I maintain the majority of people that don't want Thor to change to female would be the same people that don't want Wonder Woman to be male, Superman to be not from Krypton, Shazam to change to Marvelman's costume (and no, that's not creating a new character called Marvelman heavily influenced by Shazam), Luke Cage to reveal he's been lying about being from New York and actually coming from York, or anything else that dramatically changes a character from its history.

Can I just say that I would absolutely love it if Marvel published a story revealing that Luke Cage actually grew up in York.

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:lol:

His hammer would be called Eckythump!


Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:15 am
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I think whoever has the hammer (and who is 'pure' enough to be able to pick it up) is Thor. At least in the original origin story, which is the only Thor comic I have read!

The change does smell a bit of publicity stunt, though. Feminism is "in" at the moment, so anything that will be reported on those sort of websites will get a lot of attention. Just like some videogame company announcing a limited-edition version of the game with a statutte of a dismembered female zombie in a bikini. After a huge controversy they issued a "heartfelt apology" and cancelled it. But perhaps they never intened to make it in the first place!

And you can tell the "normal" one will be back in time for the next Avengers film, anyway. Though anybody who liked the film and who picks up that month's re-numbered "Avengers issue 1" will still have no clue what's going on. Which is probably a problem that no amount of "eqwowwity and diverthity" will solve!

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Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:37 am
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felneymike wrote:
I think whoever has the hammer (and who is 'pure' enough to be able to pick it up) is Thor. At least in the original origin story, which is the only Thor comic I have read!


This is true, kind of. When Beta Ray Bill was found worthy he didn't turn into Thor, he turned into an alien version of Thor. And the enchantment that allowed anyone else to become Thor was subsequently erased. I wasn't reading the series when Eric Masterson took up the hammer, so I don't know how that worked.

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The change does smell a bit of publicity stunt, though. Feminism is "in" at the moment, so anything that will be reported on those sort of websites will get a lot of attention.


Of course it's a publicity stunt. So was making Ms. Marvel a Muslim and making Ultimate Spider-Man black. Those two also happen to have been some of the best written comics in the last decade. "Publicity stunt" doesn't automatically mean bad or shallow.

The only growth audience for comics in America is women in the 17 - 25 age group, and they haven't been buying from Marvel or DC, so the big two are scrambling to get something out that might interest them. These include a Batgirl revamp and the new Gotham Academy from DC, and Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Storm, X-Men, Thor, and She-Hulk from Marvel.

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Just like some videogame company announcing a limited-edition version of the game with a statutte of a dismembered female zombie in a bikini. After a huge controversy they issued a "heartfelt apology" and cancelled it. But perhaps they never intened to make it in the first place!


Yes, producing something grossly offensive is exactly the same as introducing a female character in a comic. Anyone would think that no superhero identity had ever been taken over by a different character (been happening since 1961 at least) or that the new character was a different gender to the previous one (probably before 1986, but that's the earliest I can recall off the top of my head).

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And you can tell the "normal" one will be back in time for the next Avengers film, anyway. Though anybody who liked the film and who picks up that month's re-numbered "Avengers issue 1" will still have no clue what's going on.


Duh. See also upcoming changes in Iron Man and Captain America, and the just finished Superior Spider-Man. But I'm betting they will spin the new character off into her own title when the storyline is completed.

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Which is probably a problem that no amount of "eqwowwity and diverthity" will solve!


Yes, it's easy to mock anyone who has less representation than you. But it doesn't stop you looking like an arse for doing it.

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Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:14 pm
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Marionette wrote:
Anyone would think that no superhero identity had ever been taken over by a different character (been happening since 1961 at least)
1956, surely? The Flash was the first, I think.
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or that the new character was a different gender to the previous one (probably before 1986, but that's the earliest I can recall off the top of my head).
There were a few. In March 1985, a female version of the previously male assassin Syonide appeared in Batman & the Outsiders #19 (the original was a Black Lightning villain from 1977). Long before that, though, Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16 (1982) had introduced a female version of Captain Marvel, following the death of the Kree Captain Mar-Vell.

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Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:28 pm
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tony ingram wrote:
1956, surely? The Flash was the first, I think.


Yes, it was the Flash I was thinking of, but I didn't bother to check. Fifty years ago seemed like a good enough round figure.

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There were a few. In March 1985, a female version of the previously male assassin Syonide appeared in Batman & the Outsiders #19 (the original was a Black Lightning villain from 1977). Long before that, though, Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16 (1982) had introduced a female version of Captain Marvel, following the death of the Kree Captain Mar-Vell.


I was thinking of the short-lived female Wildcat, who came out of Crisis, along with Doctor Light, who was not only a female version, but also a hero version of a villain. I'd forgotten about Monica Rambeau, though.

I vaguely recall a silver age story that involved a gender-swapped Justice League, but that was only for the one story. And I think they turned out to be robots. Or an alternate world. One of those. Possibly robots pretending they were on an alternate world to confuse the real JLA. That would be a very silver agey thing to do.

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Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:42 pm
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Marionette wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
1956, surely? The Flash was the first, I think.


Yes, it was the Flash I was thinking of, but I didn't bother to check. Fifty years ago seemed like a good enough round figure.

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There were a few. In March 1985, a female version of the previously male assassin Syonide appeared in Batman & the Outsiders #19 (the original was a Black Lightning villain from 1977). Long before that, though, Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16 (1982) had introduced a female version of Captain Marvel, following the death of the Kree Captain Mar-Vell.


I was thinking of the short-lived female Wildcat, who came out of Crisis, along with Doctor Light, who was not only a female version, but also a hero version of a villain. I'd forgotten about Monica Rambeau, though.

I vaguely recall a silver age story that involved a gender-swapped Justice League, but that was only for the one story. And I think they turned out to be robots. Or an alternate world. One of those. Possibly robots pretending they were on an alternate world to confuse the real JLA. That would be a very silver agey thing to do.
I rather liked Wildcat II, and the female Dr Midnight, too. A shame they were both pointlessly killed off after Roy Thomas left DC.

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Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:09 pm
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It was more a female that just happened to be called Capt Marvel, rather than a female version of Capt Marvel. Same name but no closer than Wonder Man to Wonder Woman.

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Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:39 pm
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