Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

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Al
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Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Al »

skyromie wrote:
-MikeD- wrote:I...um...kept a copy of Swirly's reply (I knew it would be deleted) I could send you a copy if you want to restore the integrity of the board or something..
Yeah, I'd like to see it. Especially as whatever he wrote totally changed everbody's tune and this thread has been restored to normality.
The post that got deleted on the Dandy Thread has been reinstated, thanks to the quick-thinking of Mike D who grabbed a copy before it got deleted.

The post in question can be found on Page 20 of the This Weeks Dandy thread or just click this link (http://www.comicsuk.co.uk/Forum/viewtop ... &start=285). It's the 5th post on that page.

Al

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Lew Stringer »

Unbelievable!

I'm all for free speech but given some of the allegations and accusations in Martin's post (many directed at me) I wasn't surprised it had been removed. After all, it had contravened your own forum guidelines.

I'm too annoyed to call him by his silly alias of 'Swirlythingy' so I'm referring to him by his real name of Martin. The comment I posted after Martin's was made after his had been removed, or I'd have been harsher with my reply. As far as I was concerned the offending post was gone (not by any prompting by me I might add) so my reply just tackled the essence of it, ie: Martin's allegation that he'd been bullied.

When Admin removed Martin's post he said he did it because he "was too old for playground games". I know how he felt. What a pity the decision was reversed!

I'm tired of people crying "bully" every time their assertions are challenged. What happened to sensible debate here? Under the circumstances I'm quitting Comics UK. Yes, for good this time.
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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Phoenix »

Al wrote:The post that got deleted on the Dandy Thread has been reinstated, thanks to the quick-thinking of Mike D who grabbed a copy before it got deleted.
My offer to type it out again from my copy and submit it was turned down before Mike D got involved. Could we please therefore be given the reasoning behind this decision now to overturn Colin's acceptable explanation of why he deleted it in the first place. Not that I'm objecting, you understand, given that I didn't want it deleted at all, but the decision does seem arbitrary. The fact that Mike D grabbed a copy before it was deleted cannot in itself be a reason for its reinstatement.

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by colcool007 »

I must have missed your offer of re-typing it Derek. Apologies for that. The decision to reinstate it was due to many requests by other members who were worried that some form censorship was going on (plus concerned what the fuss was about after reading your reply) and that we, as moderators, felt it best (although reluctantly) that we put the post back in so that all could see it despite what we thought of the negative content of that post.

Al merely meant by
The post that got deleted on the Dandy Thread has been reinstated, thanks to the quick-thinking of Mike D who grabbed a copy before it got deleted.
was that Mike had done a cut and paste of the post and had put it into another format so that it was accessible to Mike as a private document and saved the work of trying to recreate it from scratch.

As moderators we have preferred to "tread lightly" rather than stomp heavily (as can sometimes be seen on other boards) but it seems to be time for us to start treading a bit more heavily. We enjoy this site as the amount we have learned is unbelievable, but petty behaviour ruins it for everyone and we will no longer tolerate what we perceive as attempts to begin "flame wars" or gratuitous insults.

Now I am as guilty as anyone of skipping the threads that do not interest me, but now I have to read them all. As does Grumpy Old Man, Andy and Al so that we can spot any behaviour that we deem inappropriate. I haven't asked Al about this (Sorry Al), but do we really want to go down the road of having all posts needing to be moderator-approved? I don't and I am sure that neither Andy nor Al as that will turn our fun hobby into work and I get enough of that during the day!
Last edited by colcool007 on 04 Aug 2011, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Making sure my typos don't obscure facts!
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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by AndyB »

Derek, I turned down the retyping because while it would have been good to have had it back, the effort asked of you would have been far too much. It was very kind of you to offer, but it would have been grossly unfair to have accepted it.

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Al »

The post was reinstated due to a surprising number of member requests both via the Forum, Emails and PM's to me, asking to know what it consisted of, and because it helped to make sense of the posts that followed it.

Unfortunately, the reinstatement of the post has resulted in a very, very valued member, Lew Stringer, leaving the forums. And I am truly gutted that this has happened. The man is a font of all comic knowledge, a major contributor to these Forums and a damned good artist as well. I blame myself for his leaving because I made the decision to re-post the banned missive. With hindsight, I definitely should have removed the accusations against Lew (and maybe a couple of other points as well), because it did contravene the new rules and I sincerely apologise for that.

I believed that the remainder of the post was okay to stay, and it was up to the people that read it to draw their own conclusions about the rest of its content.

If you like, Phase 1 of trying to resolve recent forum activity was the introduction of the new succinct set of rules which has generally been very well respected and adhered to and we really do thank you for that. This was a new experience for all of us and we’re still learning (myself, obviously, included). Phase 2 is the attempt to address where we go from here. I am posting this problem out in the OPEN so that we can all have a say on how to resolve this very delicate subject, with the hope that whatever comes at the end of it is adhered to.

Since 2001 and up until 5 months ago the Forum was a very comfortable place to visit and it made for many pleasurable browse and brew moments. There were a few disagreements between members but nothing untoward, and everything got resolved by the members themselves, who simply agreed to disagree and moved on.

But then it all seemed to change. During the past 5 months I have received more PM's and Emails complaining about certain posts then I have ever received since the sites inception back in 2001. So what was the cause of all the furore.

SwirlyThingy joined the boards back in March 2011 and certainly upset the status quo of what had gone on previously, by his very detailed and very opinionated posts. These upset and annoyed many members from within the industry as well as many of the site members. These annoyed members promptly responded with excellently constructed replies and very well written posts that attempted to explain why fellow members were irritated by his posts. Swirly did then calm down the tone of his posts and they became a lot more acceptable. Read his NOTW post here (http://comicsuk.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.p ... w&start=15). However, some of them do still provoke antagonism amongst the members to the point that people are leaving or simply not visiting the Forums anymore. This is most definitely not what we want, especially with the first part of the new site close to going live (that’s a subject for another post).

As I mentioned, this problem is out in the open (warts and all), which means we have to call a spade a spade (without flaming), which is why I have mentioned the fact that the upheaval started back in March 2011.

So let’s get the ball rolling with suggestions. Some people have already expressed opinions, resolutions and suggestions within other topics, but it will simply take too long to track them all down.

The first suggestion I can offer is:

Refrain from submitting posts that have a Chest-prodding feel exuding from them. Please imagine if you were on the receiving end of your own posts. If you call someone else’s work a failure, bad-decision, poor or remarks of that ilk, it is not very nice and prompts the attacks that you will undoubtedly receive. There are more courteous ways of expressing your dislike for something that will not come across as too disdainful. Or better still, do not include these parts in the posts at all.

A second suggestion:
If you are going to make remarks that are going to upset or annoy people, do not be surprised or complain when people rebuke your views or opinions.

We seriously do not want to have a whole list of rules that we all have to adhere to and monitor. Less is more in our book. Most of the content should be plain ol’ common sense and respect for the industry and Forum members. Basic qualities that seem to get ignored all to frequently in this fast-paced world that we now live in.

Over to you guys.

Al

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Raven »

I think if people are going to comment on comics, they do have to be given the option to say if they think something is poor. People only being able to express positive opinions would make for a very banal read, and this wouldn't be a forum but simply PR for the industry.

I think people who do things in the public sphere are well aware that their work will be subject to criticism at some point; it's par for the course - is there any artist/periodical/programme out there in any medium that doesn't get criticism?

And I've always thought it only fair that if someone is jumped upon for making a critical negative comment ("it's not aimed at you" "you're not a designer so how could you know?" etc.) then others should be similarly jumped on for making positive comments - which are still criticism. ("What do you mean it's great? It's not aimed at you, what do you know?" "You love the cover? Well, I hope you have professional experience in design to make that comment ... " etc.) Ludicrous, eh?

People raving positively about stuff are also opinionated. it's all just opinions! But, indeed, don't be surprised or upset if people do rebuke your criticisms. If it's all done in a polite, well mannered way it should be okay.

It may be better if sensitive industry folk actively avoided threads where they may obviously encounter critical comments of both kinds, perhaps?

It may also be good for members to also bear in mind that industry folk do read this forum and consider expressing their opinions in a respectful manner, so it doesn't sound like an angry rant that people will take personally - and try to be aware of how obsessive or off-putting you may seem if carping on about the absolute minutiae of every single page of something, like you're writing a lengthy personal blog. Never good to come across as being on the wrong side of obsessive. Better to get this stuff in perspective: we're mostly talking about children's picture story papers here.

Maybe we need more threads about Sparky, Valiant, Whizzer and Chips and other vintage comics as they always provoke the warmest replies and no fuming!

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by colcool007 »

I think that most people are aware that they have good days and bad days and will understand constructive criticism as in I don't like this because the perspective is wrong as it looks bigger in frame X than frame y, but just to go onto rant mode without offering a modicum of reasoning behind your espousal will do nothing but raise the hackles of those being criticised and rightly so. To be told you're rubbish is not a nice feeling. And this, more than anything, I think has what has annoyed comic insiders about Martin's posts.

And while some industry people can be considered sensitive, I can't really place Lew or some of the other artists in that category! :lol:
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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Raven »

colcool007 wrote: And while some industry people can be considered sensitive, I can't really place Lew or some of the other artists in that category! :lol:

But you just mentioned hackles being raised and annoyance caused, hence: sensitive to criticism about the comics (which is perfectly understandable - who isn't sensitive to criticism?)

I didn't mean sensitive in the sense of Walter the Softy, Scared Stiff Sam, or Softy Centre!

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by NP »

It's not a question of being sensitive or annoyed about criticism. That hasn't been the point at all, as would be clear from the threads at issue.

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by -MikeD- »

Maybe a 'no board member names' rule should apply to posts? It may stop things getting too personal.
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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by Phoenix »

Raven wrote:I think if people are going to comment on comics, they do have to be given the option to say if they think something is poor.
All comments, opinions, analyses and judgements about any aspect of comics and text story papers are absolutely legitimate on a forum such as ours, whether critical or not. Problems only occur when a poster allows any one of those to spill over into an expression of some personal agenda or other. The administrators are to be congratulated on their decision to meet this recent unpleasantness head on. I am sure I am not alone in feeling that it would be far better to sacrifice all such troublemakers than to lose any more people of the calibre of Lew Stringer.

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by NP »

-MikeD- wrote:Maybe a 'no board member names' rule should apply to posts? It may stop things getting too personal.
No, because then no-one could say " I really liked MikeD's page this week", either.

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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by -MikeD- »

NP wrote:
-MikeD- wrote:Maybe a 'no board member names' rule should apply to posts? It may stop things getting too personal.
No, because then no-one could say " I really liked MikeD's page this week", either.
No one ever says that anyhow... :lol:

But I get your point...back to the drawing board...
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Re: Dandy Thread - Deleted Post

Post by BeanoMark »

Personally, I think criticism is a healthy thing. It allows instant feedback and if it's worded correctly can even be called 'constructive' criticism (even though I hate that expression). You can't please all of the people all of the time, but if the majority are enjoying it then I think that matters a great deal. However, if the minority are putting across a decent argument or debate as to why certain things don't look right, or appear wrong, then it'll be looked at. Of course it will.

No one's above criticism, even the critics themselves, but as long as it's done in the correct manner and respect is given, then that's all you can ask for.

Sorry for writing in a Dandy thread (I feel dirty ha-ha!), but I thought it being a general subject really that I thought I'd stick my oar in. With regards to what the young gentleman has expressed in his post, I can't really comment on a professional level, but on a personal one I hope - when the dust has settled - he takes on board the negative comments and turn them into positive ones. Life's too short to be getting upset with internet tit-for-tats.

*gets off soapbox..... :soapbox:
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