comics on c-d rom

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

yes I have tried that one George, but you still get the 'grain ' problem at least in a strip like I SPY, which uses a lot of densely black-inked characters.


Thank you for your interest, though!

[Lew Stringer]

Lew: I intend printing out large-scale blow-up copies of my favourite I SPY artwork from 43 years ago, and getting these large prints up and onto the walls.

Ah I see. Fair enough.

[Lew Stringer]

Along the lines of scan sharing , I know that some US scanners are a pain , but any British ones that I have encountered have been nothing but generous , thoughtful and extremely helpful with both their time and knowledge. As I hope I have been.

Yes I can appreciate that Cap. It makes sense for collectors to scan their prized items onto disc or a flash drive in order to preserve them. And it's fine to loan those discs or flash drives to other collectors to read. Or even to upload a few pages on blogs as examples of various strips and comics for historical purposes just as people used to show a few pages in fanzines and books about comics. Unfortunately however there's still no justification in making non-public domain scans of entire comics available for anyone in the world to download without the copyright holders consent. It can be dressed up in the friendly term of "sharing" but it's still piracy.

Thankfully I don't think the problem of pirating recent comics is as bad in the UK as it is in the USA, but it does still happen, and it's another thing that's killing the industry.

Anyway, not looking for an argument. Just wanted to have my say on the matter.

[Captain Storm]

Hi Lew,

Yeah , no problem. We each have our stance on the subject and I know we respect each others views. Anyway , it's time for the old Cap to move on. I have really enjoyed our tête-à-tête down through the years on this forum and I'll probably miss that most of all. Still. you know how to get hold of me if needs be As for the rest of the forum , you'll find me at the helm of the Yellowed Pages - c'mon in , the water's lovely

The Cap.

Farewell Al Notton - thanks for everything

[alanultron5]

I once bought a disc with 1966 & 1968 issues of `TV Times` on! I did this as I was researching the series "Mystery and Imagination" which was screened by ABC TV those years! I could not travel to London to research the actual issues (My health) so getting the disc was my only option!

[paw broon]

I've been having a think, again, about this and after having spoken to some fellow comics fans I feel that a couple of reasons/arguments against digitizing comics are a bit narrow. For instance, the suggestion that hard drives can fail, or, one of my own fears, that an EMP or flip of the Earth's magnetic field (which is overdue) will destroy the collected e-info, are correct. Unfortunately, roof leaks, damp, fires, accidents can have the same effect. So neither method of storage is infallible.
Perhaps we should consider all means of preserving paper ephemera because these fragile publications will, eventually, fall to bits. As for the potential illegalities of preserving comics digitally, and while 2 wrongs do not make a right, have a stroll outside to the pavement and watch the traffic for a few minutes and you will find many breaches of the law, with all the attendant consequencies. We also hear a lot from government re. tax avoidance and how immoral it can be but I do it and I'm sure there are other members who have ISAs.
How many of us have copied tv shows, tapes, music etc. and passed the copies on more than once?
Livelihoods at risk? perhaps, although oservations might suggest that it's not copying that is destroying or stifling the industry. Lives at risk? Definately.
I am now of the opinion that we should be saving comics digitally as well as physically and storing both forms as safely as possible. I don't want them to be lost to future generations. But I wont sell the e-copies and if/when an authorised version appears, I'll buy it.
By the way, I'm not sure that copying non-pd comics is more prevalent in USA as there are numerous examples of relatively recent British comics being copied in close to complete runs. Obviously, even if I did know which sites were involved, I couldn't tell you. Bear in mind that there are many more pd comics under US law than exist in most European jurisdictions.
I wonder if my ramblings will incite some further sarcasm or rudeness. I do hope not as I offer them as a, hopefully, useful addition to the discussion.

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

There's a system of storing visuals on blu-ray -like discs that is 'guaranteed' to last 1000 years------how you claim your money back before the expiry date is an odd one, though!


These ultra-durable M-discs should ensure that scans of WHAM! comic can theoretically be available for viewing in the year 2112, long after the paper versions have crumbled to nothingness:


http://millenniata.com/2011/08/24/mille ... a-storage/


Though the actual world of 2112, of course, may [visually] well surpass even the startling imagery from Ken Reid in these 1960s comics.

[Lew Stringer]

Perhaps we should consider all means of preserving paper ephemera because these fragile publications will, eventually, fall to bits.

I agree 100% with that sentence. It's very wise for collectors to scan and store their comics on disc, flash drive, or on any future format, but that still doesn't make it ok to make the leap to illegally publishing and distributing them. (Or "file sharing" as it's known.) The excuse of "I want those comics I can't afford and I'll have them in any way I can" (which is all it boils down to) isn't strong enough justification in my opinion. There are lots of comics I want, but I go without.

As for whether or not opponents of piracy commit traffic crimes, or have ISA's, that's just a straw man argument really isn't it? I don't own a car and I don't evade tax so my hands are clean there.

[paw broon]

Lew, thanks for your comments. Not sure about what "straw man" means. Glad your hands are clean. I have a car and attempt at all times to drive to the posted limits. I don't use a mobile while driving. I do, like millions of others, have an ISA so I avoid tax. Not on anything else, by the way. Except, of course for pensions and some insurance policies where you do get relief or avoid the full rate of of tax.
I'd be surprised if you'd never made a copy of a tune or taped a tv show and passed it on but happy to accept your assurance that you haven't. I've did that a lot in my younger years
I don't use file sharing sites (I think they're torrents?)
I was trying, badly, to say that there are many laws broken every day and that millions of people decide, every day, which laws to obey and which to ignore and not that opponents of file sharing are different from anyone else. Doesn't make any of it correct but it happens and driving at speed or using a mobile, causes death and injury as opposed to preserving comics electronically, which doesn't.
As for the "I want those comics I can't afford and I'll have them in any way I can". That is partly wrong in that a part of this is about comics that exist but the rights holders can't be bothered to try and sell them, for all the reasons, right or wrong, laid out within this discussion.
As an aside, the NLS is involved in a huge digitisation exercise at the moment and all those copyright papers, books, etc. that they hold will be made available, (already are, in some cases) online, free, for anyone who is interested. Great, indeed. Not making a point. Just a fact, take from it what you will, or ignore it.

As I'm not comfortable using smilies, let me add that nothing above is meant as sarcastic or rude. Hope you don't mind my responding. I'll check out of this discussion now. It's been interesting, informative and "deadly" in one case, which is sad.

[Lew Stringer]

Lew, thanks for your comments. Not sure about what "straw man" means. Glad your hands are clean.

A "straw man argument" is where someone raises an imaginary scenario that has nothing to do with the debate in order to try and weaken the opponent's stance . (eg: driving offences).

I'd be surprised if you'd never made a copy of a tune or taped a tv show and passed it on but happy to accept your assurance that you haven't.

Well that's another straw man argument isn't it? A number of my friends used to swap tapes all the time back in the 1970s but I didn't get into it. Not that much of a tv/music geek to do it. Even so, that'd only be small scale sharing. No one's saying you can't loan a comic zip drive to a mate for him to read. It's publishing it online for anyone in the world to download that's the issue. It's a matter of scale.

As I'm not comfortable using smilies, let me add that nothing above is meant as sarcastic or rude. Hope you don't mind my responding.

Of course not. Everyone's entitled to an opinion on the matter and the debate has been firm but friendly as far as I'm concerned.

[NP]

There's a system of storing visuals on blu-ray -like discs that is 'guaranteed' to last 1000 years...scans of WHAM! comic can theoretically be available for viewing in the year 2112, long after the paper versions have crumbled to nothingness

I have printed matter from well over 100 years ago (I have a couple of things from 1799) that are very far from crumbling to nothingness. And my copies of WHAM!, already nearly halfway to being 100 years old, are practically flawless. I think the idea that everything must be scanned and stored or in 100 years it'll be dust is totally without foundation. I know more recent paper is prepared differently to !9th Century stuff but I see no major difference in the condition of the paper of any of the comics I looked at today from 1910, 1935, 1950, 1965, 1970, 1990 or 2010. Except perhaps that for letterpress, the stuff from the 1930s is the best; for photogravure, the 1960s.

[Lew Stringer]

There's a system of storing visuals on blu-ray -like discs that is 'guaranteed' to last 1000 years...scans of WHAM! comic can theoretically be available for viewing in the year 2112, long after the paper versions have crumbled to nothingness

I have printed matter from well over 100 years ago (I have a couple of things from 1799) that are very far from crumbling to nothingness. And my copies of WHAM!, already nearly halfway to being 100 years old, are practically flawless. I think the idea that everything must be scanned and stored or in 100 years it'll be dust is totally without foundation. I know more recent paper is prepared differently to !9th Century stuff but I see no major difference in the condition of the paper of any of the comics I looked at today from 1910, 1935, 1950, 1965, 1970, 1990 or 2010. Except perhaps that for letterpress, the stuff from the 1930s is the best; for photogravure, the 1960s.

Exactly. It comes down to how the comics are stored. If people leave them in a damp shed or in strong sunlight they're going to deteriorate. Those old comics that one finds on eBay might be dog-eared but that's because they've had some rough treatment over the years.

Like yourself, I have comics from the 1890s that are in excellent shape, as are my Odhams and TV21 comics. If they're looked after by whoever has them after me they'll outlast all of us on this forum.

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

Sorry guys, [NP and Lew]: I apologize I made an error in saying that the M-discs can store stuff for 1000 years, and I should have written that visuals can be stored on disc until the year '3012' and not '2112' [maths was never my strong point---I'm surprized you especially never reprimanded me for this, Digifiend!]. To be fair, nobody else noticed this 900-year error either.

Ah well, what's a mere 900 years in the grand scheme of things?


There probably still is parchment empherea from around 1012 somewhere, so yes, these comics could still be around in another 1000 years: they sure as hell won't last forever though. Some of these old comics will last 100 years or more, but many won't: and I reckon it's a safe precaution to transfer at least some of this stuff onto 'safety disc' ....these ' 1000-year-discs ' only cost about 5 dollars each!

The copies I have of Odhams stuff is probably derived from someone who kept them in a damp loft, and I'm sure some of you out there have decent copies. The copies I have will not last 'til 2112, I have to be careful with them less than 50 years later.


Some of the very early Beanos and Dandys of the 1930s are already starting to 'eat themselves' as I remember seeing in an online documentary: it's better to be safe than sorry regarding saving visuals for the future---keep the comics in good shape by all means, but there's certainly no harm in producing back-ups as a second line of 'defence'.


Regarding having 'dirty hands', [owning dodgy disks]: well, I put my grubby mitts up and confess. I'm sorry the fat-cats will have to do with a little less of their luxuries, but these are tough times. Hence all these middle-class people queueing up in POUNDLAND.


It's true I'm openly anti-capitalist [though I'm no 'snivelling commie' either!!] ---I deplore cruelty to animals and civilians being targeted in War, so hopefully I do possess some decency, dear reader........

[philcom55]

Whatever the legal rights and wrongs of all this the one thing we can be sure of is that time and technology can be relied upon to make fools of us all in the long run. One only has to remember that as recently as the 1970s many of these copyright holders were busy piling mountains of original artwork on skips to save storage costs, confident that there'd never be any cause to reprint it again. And lets not forget those far-sighted chaps at the BBC who were simultaneously dumping their tapes of Doctor Who and Top of the Pops! In those days (not so long ago) collectors like Bob Monkhouse were looked upon as either troublemakers or eccentric nutcases.

- Phil Rushton

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

Even live coverage of the first 1969 moon landing was deliberately junked, so imagine what 'lesser' status TV transmissions were to end up uncerimonously chucked into the BBC/ITV furnace-----luckily, in the case of vintage comics, they were selling in high enough numbers to ensure that full runs of readable comics surely exist somewhere, although much of the original artwork is doubtless gone forever.


Comics seem to be one of the last remaining media where affordable archive copies are not forthcoming: in almost every other instance [DVDs of old films/.TV series /radio shows/ cds of obscure 70s b-sides/ ] it's easy to get affordable [often completely legal and official] copies for the true conniseur.

Yes, a lot of old TV shows were junked, and here's where comics have the advantage------it's more than feasible for complete runs of every comic from the 1930s onwards, if enthusiasts were to pool their resources.

Instead, we're seeing the equivalent of elitists hanging onto their booty, where the wider public has no affordable access to this stuff------the democracy of putting out mass-produced dvd-rom archives can only get this stuff accross to the wider audience it deserves.