comics on c-d rom

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

nice rant, Paw!All contributions from all members are more than welcome. I hid behind an alias for a long time, but I less-than-proudly display my 'real' name at the end of every post, but this is more me showing off my efforts on GIMP.


In the USA, comics History is pursued much more vigorously, with many early works like Krazy KAT, Popeye the Sailor, PEANUTS and a host of others lavishly reprinted for the benefit of enthusiasts.


In the UK, there's a snob-barrier against 'kid's' comics especially, and the Establishment will sneer with superiority, with smugness and aloofness, at the idea of trying to preserve 'childish' comics from yesteryear, and getting the stuff out to a wide audience, at low cost, via modern technology.


This is an area in which bootleggers thrive in, for better or worse

[Tin Can Tommy]

In fact, A.P material is in a right mess and the current rights holders have little or no idea to what those rights refer or where the originals might be or even whether they exist pre-1960, it is alleged..

Wont pre-1960 comics come into the public domain soonish. A brief look online suggests that copyright in the United Kingdom holds for 70 years so by 2030 all their pre-1960 comics will be public domain and can be copied and shared online legally.

I dont know the ins and outs of copyright law so I might be wrong on this though.

[paw broon]

Thanks for the kind words. I now feel a bit embarrassed. But you are correct re. the aloofness, superiority and smugness bit. I've found that it doesn't exist to anything like that extent in Italy, Netherlands and especially France and Belgium. Although I do not enjoy manga, it is a serious art/entertainment form in Japan. I feel that it is a part of the reason for the dearth of British reprint material, in as much as publishers publish other , "more imortant" stuff such as newspapers, magazines and books, you know, serious, grown up reading material. That is part of the reason why I came to the decision that preserving old orphaned material electronically was an important project.
There is no reason for publishers to release their libraries, if they even know what or where it is, because to them it's just unimportant kids stuff. It is up to folk like many on comicsuk to try and preserve these comics. AND NOT CHARGE FOR IT.
We'll see if any pirated material turns up this weekend at Collectormania.

Tin Can Tommy, it doesn't seem to be as simple as that as copyright can exist till , I forget how many, years after the death of the creators. Also copyright can and has been renewed by publishers. Some of the more learned on here can tell you much more. But it's complicated and copyright lawyers are very expensive.

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

Tincan, paw:


in the USA, material like POPEYE [comics-book/newspaper strip version, by Elzie Segar] is put out regularly in pretty deluxe-type book form, and whoever is publishing this stuff must have considerable outlay/investment---this material dates from 1937 and earlier, but it looks like someone somewhere owns the rights to this stuff [which ensures some kind of quality control.]

Same goes for early 50s PEANUTS, which is widely available [even in the UK] in good hardback format---granted these are newspaper strips, not comics strips , which may be treated differently.

[Marionette]

Sorry this controversial thread [which I started in a total act of innocence] has descended into bittersweet conflict, which I hope will resolve soon.



On a happier note, I've made a decision: I have very good copies of SPARKY 1969-70, and sometime in the future I intend scanning them all in hi-res [600 dpi] and transferring the imagery to DVD.

I intend producing multiple copies of these and sending them out [at my cost] to places like central libraries or the British Library in London, as items of Historical interest. Maybe they will reject them, in which case I will try and found my OWN organization of collecting comics data on c-d rom/DVD. Not for profit, but simply to try and rescue old comics from near-total oblivion, which WILL happen if nobody takes steps to try and prevent this.


I may even have to advertise this idea on here [if it's acceptable to Al and the other moderators] in order to hopefully obtain material from comics enthusiasts and try and establlish a system that will ensure that these older comics can at least be seen by SOMEONE after we are all gone.


It goes without saying that stacks of comics salted away in cupboards [ no matter how good the condition] after the original owners are gone may well be uncerimoniously dumped into a skip by whoever inherits these decades-old comics and may regard them as junk, , which does not bode well for future Historians of 20th-Century UK comics.

There's a place in London which I think is called the Cartoon Museum, who have an ongoing project to scan and archive comics. They are on my list to send stuff to. I've been meaning to contact them and find out what format/resolution they use.

[Marionette]

Tincan, paw:


in the USA, material like POPEYE [comics-book/newspaper strip version, by Elzie Segar] is put out regularly in pretty deluxe-type book form, and whoever is publishing this stuff must have considerable outlay/investment---this material dates from 1937 and earlier, but it looks like someone somewhere owns the rights to this stuff [which ensures some kind of quality control.]

Same goes for early 50s PEANUTS, which is widely available [even in the UK] in good hardback format---granted these are newspaper strips, not comics strips , which may be treated differently.

Since the rise of the graphic novel, American comics publishers have been busily publishing collections of comics from their immense archives. Even so, there's still a lot that hasn't been reprinted, simply because there's so much material.

And then there is a vast quantity of public domain material from the forties and fifties from short lived publishers of the comic boom years. There are one or two online archives that collect this PD material and make it available free to anyone interested.

I'm also aware of one or two libraries that archive comics. Unfortunately their early efforts used microfilm, which is far from a good medium to preserve the material, and they are horrible compared to modern scans.

[philcom55]

To be fair to Lew it's understandable that this is a touchy subject for him in that internet piracy could potentially interfere with his livelihood. Given the news coming out of DC Thomson this week it must feel as if 'traditional' British comic artists are becoming something of an endangered species just lately (though I'm pretty sure he's good enough to find plenty of work, whatever happens!).

- Phil R.

[stevezodiac]

Having a vast comic collection means I just don't have the room for the large hardback reprint collections although I do buy the Essentials and Showcase volumes. I buy the dc-rom collections from the comic fair just to have the golden age stuff but if they were legally marketed by the companies in cd form I would buy the legit versions (although some of the publishers no longer exist).

My name is Stephen Mitchell by the way - just for the record. (A nice Scottish name).

[Lew Stringer]

I'm sorry, but the excuses thrown up for defending piracy don't hold water.

"It's the only way I can obtain these items" is in direct contrast to the What I bought today topic which has numerous examples of people buying old comics at often very cheap prices. Sometimes the same people who defend piracy!

"We must put them online for future generations to enjoy". Fine. Get permission to do it then. If they say no, I'm sure there are numerous public domain comics out there you could share. If you're intent on doing it, why not check the legalities of the items first? If the copyright holder says no, then it's not yours to distribute. Don't shoot the messenger again. That's the law. Live with it.

Rab, publicly announcing that you're going to produce bootleg copies of DC Thomson owned comics? Don't blame me if it leads to consequences.

Anyway, I've been spitting in the wind long enough on this subject.

Reading through all the replies again on this long but revealing topic it's evident that my anti-piracy stance is the minority view here. If people want to dress up copyright infringement as some noble act of sharing, and try to spin the situation to claim that anti-piracy commentators are selfish elitists then I no longer feel comfortable contributing to this forum. I've said all I wanted to say here. It used to be fun.

Enough time wasted. Back to the drawing board for me.

[Captain Storm]

I'm not defending anybody but if I worked for a T.V. license collection company then no way would I encourage anybody not to pay their T.V. license if it meant me losing my job because of no income. That's just the way of the world. Perversely , on the other hand , back in the day when BBC and ITV were merrily chucking out tapes of classic T.V. shows or wiping them to record again , the " pirates " thankfully had recorded most of them ( quite how they did this back in the day is beyond me? ). When it came to producing box sets , who did BBC ask for help? The " pirates " ! So there is for and against almost anything really. Sure it was unethical , sure it was copyright theft , sure it helped BBC out of a sticky patch and enabled future generations to enjoy entertainment from long ago. The same applies with nearly all mass media , be it print or moving images. As the years go by , it gets forgotten , it gets collected , it gets debated , it gets argued about. We could wait a hundred years for it to fall into the public domain by which time it would all probably be dust and of course so would we. Or we could archive it. Until such time as D.C. Thomson , Egmont or any of the big players officially takes somebody to court ( which would be worldwide news! ) I'm afraid there is no other option. I fully appreciate the fact that people care about this material and want it preserved for the future. If they won't do , none of the companies will. The big media companies don't care about the merits of full run electronic archiving. They only care about protecting their copyright status. Ask Egmont about a a character from a 1973 edition of one of " their " comics and they will not have a clue what you are talking about! All they know is " Copyright " ownership. They may never do anything substantial with all the material they now " own " but in the public interest the scanners most certainly do. So in 30 years time , when Egmont have sold off their copyright because they want to make a fast buck and open up a burger chain and anyway what the hell had they bought in the first place anyway to some budding businessman who feels it would be cool to release this archive material , who will he turn to? Ah , yes , " anybody out there have old copies of such and such "? Step forward little Johnny whose Dad has these weird discs stashed in the attic. Anybody getting the picture yet? I could rattle on and on , but to be honest , real life is so much more fun. So in essense there is for and against almost anything.

The Cap.

[stevezodiac]

Many months ago in the non comics discussion I put on a magazine article about the kindle fire which had been released in the USA last year. It mentioned DC comics making 100 of their graphic novels available to download (the fire has a colour screen). I would hope this is the beginning of lots of archive comics being available in e-book form. I believe the kindle fire will soon be released in the UK. Sizing may be a problem though - reducing a text page is one thing but how about a Jack Kirby two page spread?

[Lew Stringer]

Step forward little Johnny whose Dad has these weird discs stashed in the attic. Anybody getting the picture yet?

Ok. One last time, because this point keeps being misunderstood:

No one is saying you shouldn't scan comics to store for personal use. So if some future publisher puts the call out asking if anyone has Buster from January 1980 for example, then yes, of course fans can then share their copies with the new copyright owner. And for a good fee too I hope.

It's "scanners" who take it upon themselves to distribute scans (ie: file sharing) that are breaking the law, not the ones who store scans for their personal archives.

I hope that's clearer. Bye.

[Captain Storm]

I think the iPad would probably be better suited for old british comics Steve. Perhaps it's the way to go. Offer a full run of your favourite old comic or a year on year volume for X amount as a download and a limited collectors bound print run of say 1000. This could be offered across the full spectrum of comics now defunct. The collectors will be happy because they have something tangible , the fans will be happy because they will have their comics digitally stored , and the companies will be happy with the profits. Win , win , win!!! Of course the same could be applied to any future new material. Now somebody tell me that this sounds crazy!

The Cap.

[Marionette]

Many months ago in the non comics discussion I put on a magazine article about the kindle fire which had been released in the USA last year. It mentioned DC comics making 100 of their graphic novels available to download (the fire has a colour screen). I would hope this is the beginning of lots of archive comics being available in e-book form. I believe the kindle fire will soon be released in the UK. Sizing may be a problem though - reducing a text page is one thing but how about a Jack Kirby two page spread?

DC went to full digital distribution of all their new titles a year ago. And one of their comics (Batwoman) regularly has the most gorgeous two page spreads. That's one I'm planning to wait for the reprint collections for.

Many British comics are that bit larger than the American format, and while you can always enlarge the page on an ipad, it's a pain to do every page. But then until I got my new reading glasses, I was having trouble making out the tiny text in Misty anyway, so the possibility of enlarging it is one of the advantages of digital for us old folk with bad eyes.

[Captain Storm]

Lew said :

No one is saying you shouldn't scan comics to store for personal use.

Lew , perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I am talking of scans for future public use not personal use per se , though that of course does come into play. It's a sad fact of life that comics as we know them are falling into disuse. There's just so much competing media out there , that the mind boggles. And of course I am talking about material from 20 plus years ago and further back , not brand new material. So none of this will impact on you personally or professionally. I can well understand that you are stressed at the current turn of events. I know I would be. But life is harsh and we have to adapt , often against what we believe in. That's evolution. Even D.C. Thomson have conceded on The Dandy. Charles Darwin put it succinctly : " Adapt or die! " What people here are talking about is the archiving of a British institution , because the big players in the Industry don't give a hoot - profit is everything , the here and now. That's life. And I firmly believe that in time to come , when you and I are even older ( hopefully ) that another generation will thank the scanners for their work. Just as we marvel at old photos and archaic cine images of byegone times , so too will future generations appreciate that somebody somewhere took the time and trouble to prevent something so important and so part of life back then from disappearing forever. Best of luck in whatever you decide to do from here on in,

The Cap.