British Comics in The Times

[Lew Stringer]

If we look at wiki, then we can see the variations. The version for my area and my era was If he squeals, let him go for the third line instead of If he hollers let him go.

Either way, I can't say that it meant anything regarding people as we did not know anyone that wasn't white and Scottish then. It was simply a randomising event that allowed us to pick our "victim" of the day.

You picked on a victim every day? This gets worse! Phone The Guardian!

I only knew it as something to choose between inanimate objects. Perhaps I lived a sheltered life.

[philcom55]

I only knew it as something to choose between inanimate objects....

Yes, it was more or less interchangeable with 'one potato, two potato' and 'roses are red'.

As far as alternatives for the 'n' word go I guess it really does depend on your age. When I first learned the 'eeny, meeny, miney' rhyme in the late 1950s there was only one common version, which was taught at nursery school alongside 'Jack and Jill' and 'Three blind mice'; I'd never even heard of the 'tiger' variation before this week! When something is burned into your memory in that way at such an early age it becomes impossible to unlearn - however much you'd like to.

- Phil R.

[Lew Stringer]

When something is burned into your memory in that way at such an early age it becomes impossible to unlearn - however much you'd like to.

- Phil R.

It's not exactly about unlearning it, but forgetting it. Life is constantly about progression and adapting to modern times. Irreverent references to race etc being something that gets discarded as part of growing up.

I've heard a few people say things like "Well that's how we spoke in my day so I can't help it" (although I know that's not exactly what you're saying). That excuses it back then, but it doesn't excuse it now. People's minds aren't like obsolete computers that reach their limit for an upgrade. We keep learning and adjusting, especially when it's for good reason.

[philcom55]

Oh I agree there's no excuse for saying the 'n' word out loud today - it still doesn't stop it from echoing around inside your head though. Thus time makes 'thought criminals' of us all!

I guess we all think of our generation as the first truly enlightened one when we're young - yet if we live long enough it's probably inevitable that we'll end our days as an embarrassing relic of the past who gets invited every year to share Christmas dinner with a table full of youngsters who've been warned beforehand to make allowances for our age and 'never mention Pakistanis or the War!' (though in our case the taboo subjects are likely to be brand new ones).

- Phil R.

[Lew Stringer]

Oh I agree there's no excuse for saying the 'n' word out loud today - it still doesn't stop it from echoing around inside your head though. Thus time makes 'thought criminals' of us all!

Well, my point is that it doesn't echo in our heads, - because it's a phrase that's been discarded long ago. Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree. Likewise, the derogatory terms for Downs Syndrome and the physically disabled wouldn't spring to mind either now I hope. All phrases we may have used in the sixties but rightfully put aside a long time ago.

I like the Roy Wilson strip Stymie's Magic Wishbone in the old copies of Radio Fun that I have, but seeing the words 'n---er' and 'c--n' used to regularly describe him in the text, albeit attempted in a friendly way, makes me cringe. Yes, that's how it was back then and it shouldn't be censored for reshowing today because it's a document of the times, but the difference is in the reaction of the reader.

[DavidKW]

I just switch over and avoid anything with Ross and/or Clarkson.

Think business about Clarkson has been widely exaggerated - many kids were saying what he did in 70s & it stays with them off camera. But then Clarkson always appears a relic from the 1970s - someone who got frozen in time from then & unleashed from the 1990s.

But back then it was a time when millions still watched likes of the Black & White Minstrels (even Winker Watson put on a B&W minstral show in 1970 Dandy annual political incorrectness of its time).

I remember many times when people would say such & such pop group/TV star you like was on show hosted by Jonathan Ross & did you see it? And I say I never watch or touch anything that (bleep) Ross does, no matter what. Been saying that since 1990.

[philcom55]

When I say the word echoes in my head I don't mean that I look at a black man in the street and think 'he's a n----r' - I've never thought like that! I just don't think it's possible to simply erase it from memory - nor do I think it'd be a good thing if we could.

In point of fact I'd argue that it's become a more important word today than it ever used to be: not as the term of abuse it may (or may not) have been in the past but rather as a key signifier of racism in the modern world! In a strange way it's a bit like the Hebrew name of God: the fact that you're not allowed to say it makes it even more powerful in the long run.

- Phil Rushton

[Lew Stringer]

When I say the word echoes in my head I don't mean that I look at a black man in the street and think 'he's a n----r' - I've never thought like that! I just don't think it's possible to simply erase it from memory - nor do I think it'd be a good thing if we could.
- Phil Rushton

Good. We're on the same wavelength then Phil. Yes, the word is still in our heads in that respect of course. The fact that it moved to Clarkson's lips so casually though, not once but twice, suggests he hasn't developed the same sort of 'filter'. Yet the fact he muttered it showed he knew it to be wrong. You'd think that would have stopped him using it altogether.

[Raven]

Well, my point is that it doesn't echo in our heads, - because it's a phrase that's been discarded long ago ... All phrases we may have used in the sixties but rightfully put aside a long time ago.

It hasn't really been discarded or put aside a long time ago, though, as it's used so profusely in hip-hop/rap/grime music, where many black artists use it - probably many would say overuse it - very freely, some multiple times per song. If you listen to that area of music, you come across it a lot.

[Lew Stringer]

It hasn't really been discarded or put aside a long time ago, though, as it's used so profusely in hip-hop/rap/grime music, where many black artists use it - probably many would say overuse it - very freely, some multiple times per song. If you listen to that kind of music, you come across it a lot.

True, but there's a difference if a black person uses it.

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

All this reminds me of this old joke:


'Officer, can I get arrested for calling you a **** ?'

----'Why of course'.

Officer, can I get arrested for only thinking you are a **** ?'

-------'No'.


'Officer, I think you're a **** !'

[philcom55]

[Raven]

It hasn't really been discarded or put aside a long time ago, though, as it's used so profusely in hip-hop/rap/grime music, where many black artists use it - probably many would say overuse it - very freely, some multiple times per song. If you listen to that kind of music, you come across it a lot.

True, but there's a difference if a black person uses it.

There is, indeed (my point was mainly that it's not long discarded, but endemic in cutting edge popular culture), but you could argue that its heavy use in rap still desensitizes young people to racial issues. It's just an odd situation where Clarkson has to beg forgiveness from the nation for apparently not saying the word in a piece that was never broadcast, and Harriet Harman is saying that anybody who's used the word in any context has no place at the BBC - perhaps Chris Rock won't be guesting on the Graham Norton Show again, then - when it's used so profusely and listened to daily in the "urban" music scene.

Phil, what makes you say Jonathan Ross is seen as a "left wing" lout?

[philcom55]

Phil, what makes you say Jonathan Ross is seen as a "left wing" lout?

Well, I'm pretty sure that's how my father saw him.

I agree that he tends to steer clear of politics as such, but I have heard him make some dangerously egalitarian comments about the poor and downtrodden.

- Phil R.

[Raven]

Phil, what makes you say Jonathan Ross is seen as a "left wing" lout?

Well, I'm pretty sure that's how my father saw him.

I agree that he tends to steer clear of politics as such, but I have heard him make some dangerously egalitarian comments about the poor and downtrodden.

- Phil R.

I hope your "dangerously" is ironic, there!

I hadn't heard anything relating him to socialist beliefs; I recall when he first came to public attention on The Last Resort in the '80s, some seemed to consider him a yuppie!