Comics UK

Ah the smell of intelligent conversation and not a troll in sight. Beautiful.

Going back to the point about the publisher re-using the characters, thereby extending the copyright, should mean that the anniversary annuals such as The History of Lord Snooty or the final print edition of the Dandy should mean that DCT does not have a lot to worry about until 2062!

colcool007 wrote:Going back to the point about the publisher re-using the characters, thereby extending the copyright, should mean that the anniversary annuals such as The History of Lord Snooty or the final print edition of the Dandy should mean that DCT does not have a lot to worry about until 2062!

And there was me thinking that the red names read every post. I have posted at least twice the information, given to me by a staff member in the photocopying section of the British Library, that Thomsons automatically renew the copyright of any and all the titles they have ever produced, whether they have reused them or not. This means that colcool007 is talking nonsense when he says that DCT does not have a lot to worry about until 2062. They do not have to worry at all, because their printed works NEVER, and WILL NEVER go out of copyright. If any aspect of the British Library operative's statement to me was wrong, could any one of the DCT staff on this forum please come in and let us know.

To be more precise we skim read most posts. But that is good news for DCT. But I am sure that I caught a discussion on one programme (I think it was the discussion about Tarzan's Centenary) about how an intellectual property is not used then the copyright lapses after 70 years. But I could be wrong...

colcool007 wrote:Ah the smell of intelligent conversation and not a troll in sight. Beautiful.

I have to be careful how I word some of these posts, Col, as many will see me as promoting organized crime-----I actually see this as a modern equivalent of 'home taping' music from the radio, which I done for 20 years and enjoyed immensely......in many cases, I went on to buy the official records/cds.[eventually]

The comics I have on dvd/cd are about as legit as the music I had on cassette in the 70s-90s taped direct from the radio: this did serve a handy purpose however, it was a useful, usable supplement to official vinyl. It was never quite the same as owning the records, though: the same principal applies to owning comics on disc.

There was a massive furore about how 'home taping is killing music' in the 80s: modern piracy is clearly a lot more hi-tech. Downloading music especially seems to be epedemic: however this is geared to music which is played through modern devices like ipod......I still stick to the older seperates system at home, which is no use for compressed music that comes through a computer. Young people today don't seem to mind compressed music in the main, though.

Hopefully officially-sanctioned sets of vintage comics on dvd/cd will come out [there have been tentative steps already on this score, as Lew pointed out]: in the meantime these cd collections are doubtless providing supplementary backup for many comics fans.

But that is all these discs are: supplementary backup.


I will state that my appreciation of comics is now more diverse due to these cds: I'm able to see material I was never especially interested in [girls' comics/ War comics/ nursery comics/USA imports]---but has been revealed to be well worth a look------ in a way I could never afford to before: for looking at comics history in considerable detail,----even including some fairly obscure stuff----- I do find it a useful aspect.

ISPYSHHHGUY wrote:I actually see this as a modern equivalent of 'home taping' music from the radio, which I done for 20 years and enjoyed immensely......in many cases, I went on to buy the official records/cds.[eventually]

No one is saying you shouldn't scan comics that you've paid for to your PC or to a flash drive as a backup for your own use. That's a good idea if you have time to do it. The crime is in making multiple copies for distribution (either online or on CD etc) and, in the case of the ebay seller, profiting from works he does not own the copyright to.

The music industry responded to illegal downloads via Spotify (and others), the same way home recording on VHS led to laws being adapted.

htmlcomics showed a way for comics to adopt such a model (yes, I know his claims about being onside with the companies were nonsense but it is still a great idea).

Egmont have made some inroads but the price is too high. Let's hope it's a thought rather than a model. Can't see DC having any interest mind you in IPC, after poor sales of Jack Staff and, presumably, Albion Origins.

The current idea of not publishing Adam Eterno for 25 years might fit in with the law as it stands but it's archaic, out of date and isn't working. Going by a Roy of the Rovers previous judgement*, any fine would be tiny, if any. It's a victimless crime.

The legality is not disputed but then, speeding in the fast lane is also illegal. The authorities take a more pragmatic view.

*where a shoe company was fined something like £150 for using the name as the character was not used by the owner - and this isn't Scream Inn they used but Roy of the Rovers!
The website is undergoing maintance but here's the cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=uk

starscape wrote: Egmont have made some inroads but the price is too high. Let's hope it's a thought rather than a model. Can't see DC having any interest mind you in IPC, after poor sales of Jack Staff and, presumably, Albion Origins.

£1.99 a comic is too high? How much would you expect Egmont to charge?

starscape wrote:The current idea of not publishing Adam Eterno for 25 years might fit in with the law as it stands but it's archaic, out of date and isn't working. Going by a Roy of the Rovers previous judgement*, any fine would be tiny, if any. It's a victimless crime.

The legality is not disputed but then, speeding in the fast lane is also illegal. The authorities take a more pragmatic view.

Whether the copyright holders are doing anything with their old strips or not is irrelevant. The fact remains it's not anyone else's right to publish them for profit. Fans don't get to decide that.

How is the rightful copyright holder losing income a "victimless crime"? If people had pirated your Starscape mag instead of buying it from you wouldn't you feel cheated?

That said, I really don't know why Egmont and Time Warner haven't shut down that bootleg seller yet. I notice he doesn't pirate D.C. Thomson material. Probably very wise.

Lew Stringer wrote: How is the rightful copyright holder losing income a "victimless crime"?

When the copyright holder is not going to do anything with it and is therefore not losing income, i.e. decades old comics held by DC Comics/IPC/Time Warner that there seems no interest in either reprinting or licensing.

I didn't dispute the legality, just the business model is completely outdated. Music and films moved with the times. Comics have a good model to follow. Seems like wasted income for the company, whilst the current system does not discourage piracy.

£1.99 is fine for a printed item, with associated costs. Too much for me for decades old comics, with a fraction of the costs. Marvel Essentials/DC Showcase seems a better model.

Lew Stringer wrote:£1.99 a comic is too high? How much would you expect Egmont to charge?

starscape wrote:£1.99 is fine for a printed item, with associated costs. Too much for me for decades old comics, with a fraction of the costs.

Like Lew, I reckon that £1.99 is not just a reasonable amount to charge for a legitimate reprint of an old comic, it's a bargain price. However, I'm not sure I even fully understand either of your comments. When you say a printed item, starscape, are you referring to a new comic, a secondhand one or a reprint? What are the associated costs? Postage and Packing? Bus fares? Petrol? I assume that in your second phrase, you are saying that you would not be prepared to pay even the £1.99 for a decades old comic, but what exactly do you mean when you say a fraction of the costs? In what way are these costs different from the associated costs? Finally, why do you think that the £1.99 is too much for a company to charge for a reprint that people like you seem to want?

By a decades old comic, I mean a reprint e-comic. For costs that no longer apply to an e-comic, I meant no creator fees, no paper, no transport etc etc. Not even the 50-60% taken by distributors - even more if much of the stock is lost by SOR. An e-comic of already held material is far cheaper to produce. That's why the small press jumped on the model.

The company is free to set whatever price it likes. But that has to be balanced with what the consumer is prepared to part with. These aren't depserately sought after comics that the company can put out at any price and attract a load of buyers. A Buster issue won't fly off the e-shelves but a collected load of Buster issues for a reasonable price might attract some for nostalgic purposes.

I've never bought any of these CDs but would I buy an officially licensed set of a comic that would be of interest but not one I'm desperate to collect*? Perhaps. It depends on the price. That's simply the nature of buying and selling.

To put it another way, I've not a lot of interest in John Byrne's X-Men-The Hidden Years but he's done some interesting stuff before, so might be worth a look. £1.99 for an e-comic of reprint goodness is too much for my casual interest. The pocket books of, ooh, 10 issues or so is of interest for £4.99. Therefore, I've bought it. That's the nature of the beast. It has to be pitched at the appropriate buyer.

If you think £1.99 is a good price, how many have you bought? Who has bought reams of these e-comics at that price?

My interest in reprint material isn't to get just the very few enthusiasts to complete their collection but to get a wider cross-section reading a lost classic like Tornado's The Angry Planet. Very few will buy a Tornado for the price of a paper version of 2000AD. But £4.99 for the entire run will probably make more money than individual issues, despite the difference in cost. That's my gut feeling anyway.

(*the ones I am desperate to collect, I collect (natch!) but then there's no money for the company doing that)

starscape wrote:£1.99 for an e-comic of reprint goodness is too much for my casual interest. The pocket books of, ooh, 10 issues or so is of interest for £4.99. Therefore, I've bought it. That's the nature of the beast. It has to be pitched at the appropriate buyer. If you think £1.99 is a good price, how many have you bought?

I do think £1.99 is a good price, but I haven't bought any, nor will I. My collection is made up entirely of the original paper issues. I don't have quite all those I would like, but I'm perfectly prepared to wait until they surface somewhere. I don't know whether you feel the same way, but I can get quite excited looking through piles of DCT story papers wherever I might come across them, in charity shops, car boot sales, comic shops, antique fairs etc., anticipating that moment when I stumble across one on my Wants list. This method of collecting is considerably less fruitful of course than eBay, which I use regularly. I do understand why you would want to pay as little as you could get away with for the comics that are of casual interest, but you do say that there are comics that you are desperate to collect. If you are that desperate, why would you refuse to pay £1.99 per issue, given that the paper equivalents would be at least £3.99?

If you don't and wouldn't buy e-comics, then perhaps you are not best placed to determine the market value of e-comics. Probably sounds a little harsh - I don't mean it to be, just an honest assessment. I'm using my experience as a publisher and comics retailer to come up with my prices. I have some e-comics for sale on kindle and some free on other sites for instance.

The comics I collect, I collect as paper comics. I pay a lot more sometimes than £3.99 for them (and sometimes a lot less). But I'm really talking about publisher strategy rather than my preference. Maximising sales overall, rather than what I want.

I just don't think there will be many people prepared to pay £100 for a year's worth of black & white reprint material, where the fan base is low for the comics and much lower for e-comics. Roy of the Rovers 1982 for £100? It's just not going to happen. A year's worth of Lion for say £5 or £10? Much more likely.

It really is the casual readership and nostalgia that should be the target, rather than collectors - I just don't think that there are that many classic British e-comic collectors prepared to pay a premium price. Does anyone?

starscape wrote: I just don't think there will be many people prepared to pay £100 for a year's worth of black & white reprint material, where the fan base is low for the comics and much lower for e-comics. Roy of the Rovers 1982 for £100? It's just not going to happen. A year's worth of Lion for say £5 or £10? Much more likely.
It really is the casual readership and nostalgia that should be the target, rather than collectors - I just don't think that there are that many classic British e-comic collectors prepared to pay a premium price. Does anyone?

I have to agree with starscape comment about a years worth of lion or something like tiger or buster for that price as im sure some money going to the publisher after this lenght of time is better than nothing as dct egmont fleetway etc never expected or had the foresight to prepare for pcs internet ebooks etc & had prob thought they had made all the money they were going to maked on all their comic titles especially as they have all been dead for years.most have had the chance with graphic novels like complete judge dredd,charleys war which must sell well enough for new ones to be made every year but they should be done every 2-3 months to hold on to readers.
now with the ebook/comic thing starting up there is a real opportunity for the uk publishers to make a little bit of money & if they are cheap enough kids can see what their parents read at their age.
egmont or dct you can give me a job scanning all your pages because it will eventually have to be done anyway

big bad bri wrote:most have had the chance with graphic novels like complete judge dredd,charleys war which must sell well enough for new ones to be made every year but they should be done every 2-3 months to hold on to readers.

If Titan thought there was enough demand to produce six Charley's War books a year, they'd have done that. Sales settle, so publishers change frequency to suit. As for Rebellion's output (eg: Dredd and other 2000AD strips), they already publish quite a few books every year don't they?

big bad bri wrote: egmont or dct you can give me a job scanning all your pages because it will eventually have to be done anyway

Not necessarily. Demand for older strips is dwindling every year. Most collectors are only interested in their own nostalgia unfortunately. Strips of more recent vintage (eg: the last 10 years) are submitted to the publishers in digital format anyway.

Lew Stringer wrote: Not necessarily. Demand for older strips is dwindling every year. Most collectors are only interested in their own nostalgia unfortunately. Strips of more recent vintage (eg: the last 10 years) are submitted to the publishers in digital format anyway.

I understand what you are saying Lew about the demand for older strips & yes it prob is for our own nostalgia that is why im worried about future generations never seeing or knowing what we members of this forum love because when we are all gone what will they yearn for in 40 -50 years then,it certainly wont be comics like busters or film fun then.
But would it not be easier to produce reprint specials & annuals if the strips were scanned, im saying this because i enjoyed the special Dandy 75 anniversary special & enjoy the Beano/Dandy reprint annuals every year.But i may be wrong because i don't know how comics are produced when it comes to old material anyway.