This weeks Dandy

[Raven]

If poor sales are down to "bad" art then how would you explain Lew Stringer? He draws for the most and least successful comics and uses the same art style for both?

Firstly, I haven't said that poor sales are solely down to "bad art" - I mentioned what I thought were the various combined important ingredients for a younger kids' comic just upthread, which include concepts and scripting, and have also discussed, like others here, issues like whether too much of the comic's focus has been on matters that don't interest kids (from Jeremy Clarkson to Countdown gags).

Secondly, I've also often praised some of the artists in Dandy, and Lew's work doesn't come in to what you mention above; he's an old school craftsman who's very accomplished at humour picture strips (although I don't think that Postman Prat is one of the strongest comic concepts he's been given to work with).

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Here we go everyone. I will now "bring it"
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Dandy sales are down 48 percent which means they are selling more comics now than they did before the revamp!

They're down 48 percent, which leaves 52 percent, but they also went from once every other week to weekly. Double 52 is 104 percent. A rise of 4 percent. So monthly they're moving more copies than they used to.

The problem with Stats is that you can often write your own headline depending on how you felt about the subject prior to the new knowledge. Using the same numbers you can say Dandy sales down 48% or you can say Dandy sales up 4%

You wouldn't be correct though, as others are pointing out. But a lucrative career may well be awaiting you as a spin doctor for a major political party!

One thing that's puzzling me - sales figures for July-Dec 2010 were 15,012.
Sales figures for Jan-July 2011 are 7,448. That's actually a drop of over 50%, isn't it?

[Little Squelchy Thing]

Sad to say, from the anecdotal evidence on this forum it does seem as if kids are more interested in the plastic tat than the comic.

It is interesting to note that if you look at the full certificate for The Dandy's latest figures, there were five issues that sold ABOVE the average number of issues sold per issue. Which five were they?...

The five issued during various half-term holidays; the 44-page issues with gifts and the oft-hated over-sized covers.

I think, sadly, the toys may make more difference than we might think these days.

[Digifiend]

One thing that's puzzling me - sales figures for July-Dec 2010 were 15,012.
Sales figures for Jan-July 2011 are 7,448. That's actually a drop of over 50%, isn't it?

Indeed it is - so ABC did get their sums wrong.

[Ginger]

I think the comparison between Mr Meecher and Nuke Noodle and David Law's work is a more valid one than was given credit for, it's the looseness and simplicity of the linework, I think. I'm not saying the artists are as good as David Law, but I do think the comparison deserved a little better treatment than the shooting down in flames it got from Raven.
The Meecher artwork was definitely a bit awkward to start with, but I think the artist has got better. I like the writing on the strip, too, and do you know what? I see there's a lot of nostalgia on this forum, and that chimes with me, because I have lot of it myself, as you might guess from my username. I used to buy Classics From The Comics in the summer time to try to replicate the summer special feeling.
But you know, I was always disappointed. Some of the drawing is absolutely gorgeous, yes. But I'm almost always disappointed with the writing. Reading it as an adult, it's just not funny. I loved this stuff ass a child, but as an adult, well, meh. It's all a bit formulaic, and not really funny.

What I think about Meecher and Nuke Noodle, and Jamie Smart's work, also Yore, and Nigel Auchterlounie's work; the difference is they are, as an adult reader, actually funny!
The children find them funny too; which is very important, of course. But it's great to have writing which really makes you laugh, even as an adult. I love the idea of the comic having family appeal, like the Muppet Show or something. (And the Dandy editor spoke about aiming to do that in a recent interview: http://www.brokenfrontier.com/lowdown/p ... nd-company)
If children's comic drawing is evolving towards simpler, more naive styles of art, I think the *writing* is becoming sharper, more sophisticated and genuinely funny.

Both Mr Meecher and Nuke Noodle are drawn in, for me, very appealing styles. The Meecher style puts me in mind of Quentin Blake a little, I like the losseness of the line, but also I can see a little bit of a Baxendale influence: in Meecher himself, particularly his overbite, and also the Head is very Baxendalish, I think. I'm surprised you suggest there is no sense of tradition in the style, Raven.
I don't understand why the Mr Meecher guy hasn't been given another strip or two, seems odd, as he has proven popularity, I believe Mr Meecher did very well in the poll.

The Nuke Noodle artwork can be a little sloppy at times, but on the whole I rather like it as well.
I remeber Robot on the Run as well, and that was even better, for my money. Almost a laugh a panel, tremendous writing.

By the way, I'm a middle-aged comics buff, with two kids in the Dandy-reading age group. I've been, ha, yes, a lurker I suppose for a little while, and this thread finally compelled me into contributing here.

[Digifiend]

Meecher did well enough that it's currently enjoying a second run, in fact. His artist has also contributed to Reader's Digest a few times, which I think proves that his art style has appeal to adults as well as kids (so people can just shut up about the modern art styles being simplified for the kids).

[Ginger]

A quick Google reveals that he also contributes to Private Eye, and others.

[Nigel Auchterlounie]

Aren't the ABC figures the average sales per issue, regardless of the the frequency? In which case, everything you just said is moot.

Yes I think they are.
Average sale per issue are down loads. (I blame to toy thing) regardless of frequency.
I am regarding the frequency though. They're selling half as many, but twice as often.
So I don't think it is moot.

It may be true that issue sales over a month are steady - but production costs have all but doubled, so half the profit.

Basically...The Dandy needs more readers unless ABC have got their figures wrong.

Good point production costs will be up. I don't think it will be double though. most of the cost will be the print won't it? And they're not printing as many and it's not getting bagged.

And yes Dandy need more readers Defo.

the art is more important in determining popularity than the script:.

You're sort of right there. Good art will bring em in. And good comedy will keep them there.
I loved that "someone on the net is wrong" cartoon. That made me laugh.
Didn't care for the art though

haven't said that poor sales are solely down to "bad art"

Yeah, sorry Raven I was trying to answer everyone about everything at the same time

a lucrative career may well be awaiting you as a spin doctor for a major political party!

Humm, yes. I can see that. I'm not doing that well as a cartoonist, maybe it's time to switch. I'll need a suit I think, and perhaps some sort of tie?

[Raven]

I used to buy Classics From The Comics in the summer time to try to replicate the summer special feeling.
But you know, I was always disappointed. Some of the drawing is absolutely gorgeous, yes. But I'm almost always disappointed with the writing. Reading it as an adult, it's just not funny. I loved this stuff ass a child, but as an adult, well, meh. It's all a bit formulaic, and not really funny.

I think it's telling, though, Ginger, that you admit you loved it as a child, which means, whatever you think as an adult, they were getting it absolutely right for their target audience. And it's getting the humour and storytelling right for younger children - quite a specialised skill - that's absolutely essential.

Some - maybe most - of the old Thomson strips were formulaic (Classics often reminded me why I wasn't much of a Thomsonite as a kid), but others were well scripted by people with a clear skill for comedy, and stood out for it. I remember Colonel Blink always being a well written, funny one, for example. And Puss 'n' Boots, at its double page peak, I think remains probably the best written, funniest UK humour strip ever.

I agree with you that Jamie Smart's writing is naturally funny, and also that Robot on the Run stood out for having properly funny writing - I was surprised when that one was dropped as I thought it was a highlight, and it rated very highly on the Dandy website's poll. (I used to think its speech balloons seemed to need editing - they were huge and obscured the art - but then, that seemed to be part of the strip's style.) As its writer/artist Alexander Matthews is also the writer/artist of Nuke Noodle, I must check out this new strip.

Gary Northfield's Derek the Sheep (Beano) is another strip of recent years that I've found funny as an adult.

In the end, though, it's down to what tickles the target audience.

[Ginger]

I think it's telling, though, Ginger, that you admit you loved it as a child, which means, whatever you think as an adult, they were getting it absolutely right for their target audience.

Fair point, but with sales in freefall, isn't the Dandy editor's idea of making it a 'genuinely funny' all ages comic (I see it like the Pixar films, perhaps. Potentially) not a bad one?

I'm not saying he's going about this the right way, the celebrity stuff is awful, I'm afraid; but I like the idea of an all-ages comic.

[Raven]

Fair point, but with sales in freefall, isn't the Dandy editor's idea of making it a 'genuinely funny' all ages comic (I see it like the Pixar films, perhaps. Potentially) not a bad one?

I'm not saying he's going about this the right way, the celebrity stuff is awful, I'm afraid; but I like the idea of an all-ages comic.

I don't see that working. I just can't see a significant proportion of over-twelves/adults ever buying The Dandy just for themselves; that kind of thing just doesn't occur to people - only a very tiny proportion of adults even buy adult comics. They're never going to buy something with Korky the Cat in.

[Ginger]

The current Korky is dreadful, I agree.

I don't think we're talking about adults buying it just for themselves. The way the Dandy editor put it in the interview I linked to was 'a father and son enjoying it together.'
I buy it for my kids, ostensibly, but I enjoy (about half of) it myself. Like the Pixar films, I wouldn't go to the cinema to see them on my own, but I'm very happy to take my kids along to see them, because I know I'll probably enjoy them.
I'm more likely to keep buying it 'for my kids', if I also enjoy iy myself.

[Raven]

I meant because it would be considered uncool for over-twelves to buy something with Korky the Cat in per se, however good it was, but yes, I see what you mean.

I'm not that keen on the idea of only buying comics for your kids that you enjoy yourself, though (to be fair, would you consider turning off Newsnight, Question Time, or whatever sophisticated adult things you relax to, because it wasn't to their taste?); kids should be able to have their own pleasures - unless you actually find a comic genuinely distasteful/lowbrow/dodgy, in which case you might exercise your parenting responsibilities.

You make a good point in the 'Celebrities' thread about being a bit offended that it's just assumed your family are at all interested in the whole tabloid TV celebrity world of tat; many will probably feel similarly.

[Ginger]

I'm not that keen on the idea of only buying comics for your kids that you enjoy yourself, though

Fair point, again. I wouldn't say I'd only buy comics for the kids that I enjoy myself, but the fact that there are a few strips in the Dandy that I and the kids enjoy these days certainly doesn't deter me from buying it.

[Phoenix]

I buy it for my kids, ostensibly

I'm more likely to keep buying it 'for my kids', if I also enjoy it myself.

I wouldn't say I'd only buy comics for the kids that I enjoy myself, but the fact that there are a few strips in the Dandy that I and the kids enjoy these days certainly doesn't deter me from buying it.

I can't quite figure out, Ginger, who you are really buying these comics for, or why. The quotations above suggest to me that you are buying the comics for yourself. The first quotation, I buy it for my kids, ostensibly sounds like the kind of excuse you would give to the newsagent in case he thinks you are buying The Dandy for yourself. The second quotation implies that if you don't enjoy it yourself, you are less likely to buy it for your children, which clearly also means that their preferences are quite likely to be overridden. The point you are making in the third quotation is obscure. What would deter you from buying The Dandy? If there were fewer strips that you and the children enjoy together? Or maybe no strips that you could enjoy together? I don't see that enjoying the strips together is a valid criterion. The only valid one as far as I'm concerned is what the children like on their own. After all, The Dandy, and all other similar comics, have been created for them, not for you. In my opinion, you are using your children as some sort of smokescreen. Why don't you just buy them the comics they enjoy and let them explore them on their own. You should do so unconditionally. If you and they enjoy reading them together, fine. But that should be the sum total of your involvement. You can always pick the comics up after the children have gone to bed in order to assess, on your own, the drawing and writing skills being demonstrated by the contributors. Furthermore, it is quite possible, indeed probable, that the children might prefer to read on their own, especially if they have failed to tell you how much they actually enjoy some of the strips that they know you disapprove of.

[Ginger]

Ha ha, yes, you may be right about me using the kids as an excuse to buy the Dandy.
I wasn't expecting so much resistance to the idea of an all-ages comic (after all, the Dandy editor has stated in the interview I linked to that it is his aim), whilst I was expecting more reaction to my feeling that the old comics weren't funny (which I thought might be considered an heretical view point on a site like this!)

Phoenix, it's not that we read them together as such, we read separately. And it's not that I'm choosing the comic and the kids are having to make do with my choice: We all agree that The Dandy is the best comic around (not that there's much choice these days). I was simply suggesting that if parents can enjoy a comic too, then they're more likely to keep buying it for their children, in the same way that adults will enjoy taking their kids to Pixar movies. Everyone's a winner, what's wrong with that?

Also, I don't tell my kids which strips to enjoy; quite the reverse, I'm interested to see which ones they like: But the strips they enjoy (Mr Meecher, Nuke Noodle, Yore, Desperate Dan, The Bogies, a few others) are often the ones I like myself.

None of us like the celebrity stuff, partly I think because we just don't watch all that stuff on the TV that they're assuming everyone watches, and, in my case, because neither the writing nor the drawing appeals to me at all.