Comics UK

Raven wrote:

Lew Stringer wrote:
Beano has been the most recognizable British comic title for decades.

Lew

But that means nothing to young kids, to whom *everything* is brand new, and judged entirely on its own merits.

It means everything to the parents who choose The Beano for them to read, and to the retailers who recognise The Beano as a "brand" to stock.

Lew

Raven wrote: So what you're saying, NP, is that Dandy Xtreme is completely beyond criticism? That only kids should ever be able to make comment on things aimed at kids? Though Dandy Xtreme doesn't actually sell especially well to kids, does it?

And again, if what kids "want" is a magazine-comic, why does The traditional comic format Beano outsell it so enormously?

No, if I was saying that I would have said it. But then I can put words in your mouth too, Raven; So what you're saying is kids don't read Dandy Xtreme, adults do? See, ludicrous innit?
Nothing is beyond criticism but uninformed and plain incorrect criticism is a bit of a pain. The Beano has always outsold The Dandy by a large margin even when both were fairly similar.

[quote="Lew Stringer"]

Actually it was me who mentioned them as individualistic examples, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.


[quote="Raven"]


This is correct, sorry, Lew; I worded it badly, but Digifiend seemed to be saying in response "Yes, but they're not typical;" I thought he was implying that things conceived 'in house' were in a bit of a rut. Although checking back a few pages, he's advocating the return of very traditional characters like Korky and Winker which I don't agree with. I'd be more inclined to follow the lead of Jamie Smart and Gary Northfield and take the comics into those fresher, more individual, less traditional directions.

NP wrote: But then I can put words in your mouth too, Raven; So what you're saying is kids don't read Dandy Xtreme, adults do? See, ludicrous innit?
Nothing is beyond criticism but uninformed and plain incorrect criticism is a bit of a pain. The Beano has always outsold The Dandy by a large margin even when both were fairly similar.

What I'm saying is that one doesn't have to be a young child to pass comment or offer opinion on children's entertainment of any kind - to say "it's not for you, anyway" cuts off debate before it even begins. These things are created by adults, not children, and can be discussed by adults.

'The Beano has always outsold The Dandy by a large margin even when both were fairly similar' is not really the issue, as the Dandy still sold extremely well.

Lew Stringer wrote:
It means everything to the parents who choose The Beano for them to read, and to the retailers who recognise The Beano as a "brand" to stock.

Lew

Though they almost all seem to stock both Beano *and* Dandy side by side, and from my own observations in newsagents, supermarkets and W. H. Smith, kids generally run and grab the comic of their own choice. Did anyone here ever have their weekly comic(s) chosen for them by their parents? Generally, I think the kids will choose what they want.

(None of these points are meant aggressively, by the way, though sometimes one can sound so on forums when answering quickly - all in the spirit of friendly, open debate.)

Lew Stringer wrote:

Raven wrote: Digifiend makes a good point mentioning Jamie Smart and Gary Northfield as their work is very individualistic and atypical and seems to be coming from somewhere 'outside' traditional mainstream UK comics; it's fresh and original - obviously Jamie's original creations more so than Dan, but even his Dan can seem relatively radical.

Actually it was me who mentioned them as individualistic examples, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

All I did was note that they write their own strips, and thus were not typical of the majority of the material used in the comics. I said that if anything needed changing, it was the work done by staff writers. Dan was given to Jamie more than likely because readers felt it had become stale - no surprise, since they'd been using 1940s reprints for the last few months before he took over. I'm sure most of you would agree that the artwork and storylines are a lot more modern now, although obviously, Dan is still a very traditional character. Hence why it's been pointed out that Jamie's other work was even more up to date and non-traditionalist.

I don't intend to take credit where it isn't due...

Raven, re your most recent post - I started buying The Beano having already read some back issues and annuals which, although originally my brother's, are now part of my collection. So my own choice, but actually something of a tradition, my uncle also bought The Beano as a kid. Difference is, I've kept going, for 14 years now.

Digifiend wrote:
All I did was note that they write their own strips, and thus were not typical of the majority of the material used in the comics. I said that if anything needed changing, it was the work done by staff writers. Dan was given to Jamie more than likely because readers felt it had become stale - no surprise, since they'd been using 1940s reprints for the last few months before he took over. I'm sure most of you would agree that the artwork and storylines are a lot more modern now, although obviously, Dan is still a very traditional character.

This is all what I thought you meant, and which I thought were very astute points. Hmm ... maybe Jamie should be given Korky the Cat and asked to give him an indie, underground comics sensibility.

Digifiend wrote: Raven - I started buying The Beano having already read some back issues and annuals which, although originally my brother's, are now part of my collection. So my own choice, but actually something of a tradition, my uncle also bought The Beano as a kid. Difference is, I've kept going, for 14 years now.

I think Thomson used to rely quite heavily on family tradition for their comics - perhaps too heavily, as I don't think it works so much any more. With so many choices for kids' attention, and the generation gap probably more pronounced as media changes so fast, I think things now have to stand up more on their own merits rather than being a family tradition.

My own older brother was a Thomson reader mainly and tiny me grew up reading his Topper, Beano, Beezer, Dennis and Beryl annuals as an introduction to comics - and very much enjoyed them - though starting with the discovery of Whizzer and Chips, I quickly became a mostly IPC reader myself. I like the idea of comic reading passing down from brother to brother!

Raven wrote: Though they almost all seem to stock both Beano *and* Dandy side by side,

Speaking from personal experience there are less shops stocking the Dandy than the Beano.

Raven wrote:and from my own observations in newsagents, supermarkets and W. H. Smith, kids generally run and grab the comic of their own choice. Did anyone here ever have their weekly comic(s) chosen for them by their parents? Generally, I think the kids will choose what they want.

As mentioned in other threads, Beano and Dandy are now displayed on the top shelf in many WH Smith branches, about six feet from the ground. This is apparently to make it easier for parents to notice the comics because these days it's parents who choose the comic.

It's great that you've seen kids choosing their own comics but that's not something I've noticed in my experiences for years.

Lew

Lew Stringer wrote:
As mentioned in other threads, Beano and Dandy are now displayed on the top shelf in many WH Smith branches, about six feet from the ground. This is apparently to make it easier for parents to notice the comics because these days it's parents who choose the comic.

It's great that you've seen kids choosing their own comics but that's not something I've noticed in my experiences for years.

Lew

The six feet thing is terrible but I've not noticed it myself - in the big branch I know, they're on kid level - so in fact, are the more 'adult' comics: 2000AD, the DC/Marvel reprints. I've not come across a Smith with children's comics really high up, a really daft decision by any branch that does this - though the racks are often extremely untidy as you mention (and mags are often back to front.)

Kids sitting on the floor by the comic sections reading a title or their mum or dad patiently waiting while they pick one is something I've seen a lot - mostly in Sainsbury's! Again, just yesterday, in a branch of Sainsbury's, I saw a dad telling a little girl excitedly waving a comic that she could pick just one for herself (she wanted to choose one for her sister, too, I think.) I've often heard the likes of "No, just choose *one.*"

In most supermarkets that stock them, or W. H. Smith where I've looked, they do seem to have both the Beano and Dandy titles together.

Raven wrote: What I'm saying is that one doesn't have to be a young child to pass comment or offer opinion on children's entertainment of any kind - to say "it's not for you, anyway" cuts off debate before it even begins. These things are created by adults, not children, and can be discussed by adults.

Of course, but the argument that keeps cropping up here is usually along the lines of "comics should be like they were when I was a kid" which is really an emotional rather than logical debate. People are entitled to their fond memories of comics of course but what they seem to forget is that all of those old comics died because significant numbers of readers gradually lost interest in them! That's simply a hard fact of publishing: nothing lasts forever.

As most kids of the time grew bored with that style of comic what chance would a revival stand in today's market? It's like expecting kids of the 1970s to accept a revival of Illustrated Chips or The Funny Wonder. You can't turn the clock back. The British comic has always evolved to survive. If that means a comic/magazine hybrid which cuts back on the budget and attracts readers with movie previews then it's better than the alternative which would have been to cancel the comic.

Lew

Lew Stringer wrote:The British comic has always evolved to survive. If that means a comic/magazine hybrid which cuts back on the budget and attracts readers with movie previews then it's better than the alternative which would have been to cancel the comic.

Lew

The only problem I have with that, Lew, is the suggestion that the 'magazine' format is a natural evolution based on kids' tastes, whereas it's actually a cost-cutting measure because putting together features in house is much cheaper, and means you don't have to pay artists or outside writers. That's why comic strips became less and less - demands to do it cheaper. Now that does fit the concept of 'evolving to survive' but it doesn't mean its good or better or that it's what kids may want most from a comic - movie previews are better online; free and you get lots of good clips and trailers, plus as many pics as you could want. Often games, too. Print cannot compete in that area for kids. If they want to read about, say, the new Harry Potter film they'll go straight to its official website which will be packed with stuff.

I just don't think it would be ideal if professionals always put forward the industry viewpoint in a way that seems to suggest critics should shut up. "You're just too old for it" is too easy a put down, though it might be valid if the titles were selling sensationally. (Even then one *could* express views - Bratz was massive with young girls, but I'm sure a lot of parents would have things to say about the quality of that particular franchise.)

'Kids grew bored with that kind of comic' - that can be misleading as some comics can still do well, and still do very well indeed in other countries. It may just be that the IPC titles (more inclined to experiment, always more cutting edge) vanished and Thomson were too slow to start adapting to modern sensibilities; too little, too late.

Raven wrote: The only problem I have with that, Lew, is the suggestion that the 'magazine' format is a natural evolution based on kids' tastes, whereas it's actually a cost-cutting measure because putting together features in house is much cheaper, and means you don't have to pay artists or outside writers.

Fair point, and true to an extent. However can you prove the comic/magazine hybrid isn't a natural progression? Again, look at the bigger picture - the history of comics. The comic/mag hybrid has been around a long time, including notable titles such as Eagle, TV Century 21, Diana, and Look-In. It's a proven mixture that kids have enjoyed so, yes, it is natural that publishers should look to that "model", to use their crap phrase, when faced with budget cuts. The alternative would be cutting the page count but the price would have to stay around £2 because of production costs and to encourage shops to stock it. Would kids and parents pay £2 for a 12 or 16 page Dandy? The other alternative would be cancellation. No one wants that.

Raven wrote:I just don't think it would be ideal if professionals always put forward the industry viewpoint in a way that seems to suggest critics should shut up. "You're just too old for it" is too easy a put down, though it might be valid if the titles were selling sensationally.

It's valid anyway. You might see it as the "industry viewpoint" but it happens to be true! Our sensibilities change as adults but that doesn't mean we can't still get some enjoyment out of the artwork or the story construction of a children's comic. But it's unrealistic to expect Dandy or Beano to give you the same buzz as it did when you were a child.

Raven wrote:'Kids grew bored with that kind of comic' - that can be misleading as some comics can still do well, and still do very well indeed in other countries.

But we're talking about the UK. The tastes of other countries are often different. The Phantom is huge in Norway and Australia but it falls flat in the UK. Donald Duck comics are massive in Norway but Disney strips struggle here. I don't quite see the point you're making.

Raven wrote:It may just be that the IPC titles (more inclined to experiment, always more cutting edge) vanished and Thomson were too slow to start adapting to modern sensibilities; too little, too late.

The IPC titles vanished because kids lost interest in them! The surviving ones ended up at Egmont who are still publishing comic/mag hybrids or just magazines. Thomsons also adapted to modern tastes as they're still in the game too.

All this talk of the Dandy failing seems to ignore the fact that sales of all periodicals are falling. Have been for years! Everyone's trying their best to survive.

One last thing: in all the animosity towards Xtreme and its magazine format no one seems to have looked at the glass half full side of things: that its strip content has increased in recent issues and it now features 15 pages of all new comics plus other new illustrated features. (Latest issue has 19 pages of artwork.)

Lew

19! That must be a record in the Xtreme era.

Digifiend wrote:19! That must be a record in the Xtreme era.

This is as least the third consecutive issue that's had 15 strip pages plus assorted cartoon pages. To echo Nigel's unanswered question, I presume all of you guys who are critical of Dandy Xtreme have actually read it recently?

Lew

isn't it sealed up in a bag, Lew? [forgive me if I'm wrong: I know that BEANO MAX is]. This marketing approach works fine in the short term: punters are enticed by the 'exclusive' mystery of the 'concealed goods', but many potential readers eventually switch off and seek more accessible imagery.