Racism in comics

[Cap Haggis]

Mmmmm sounds an interesting idea although I would say this is more for a book or a specialist fan magazine (if not already done) - I would love to see a comic script (are these done similar to US comics) then the art breakdowns and the finished work for comparison (humour and adventure) now and then (just the odd strip) although I think most folk would want to see more strips themselves. Is it the case that a lot of thought (ie re race, gender etc) is put into character design or do editors , writers etc jsut react to trends at the time (ie more style of clothes etc)?

[David]

When controversy surrounds a book, its sales usually go through the roof. If it does have to be censored, I expect the original unedited version will go for a fortune on eBay.

I have had a Dandy annual (already mentioned before) that uses words you just could not use today.
But one thing that surprises me is that in this day and age, comics can still portray people from Scotland using the phrase "Och aye tha noo". Since when have you ever heard someone Scottish using that phrase? They are often ginge in comics too, and almost always wearing kilts.

[Cap Haggis]

I have to admit, as a Scot , I don't mind that in comics, I think its funny and it makes me smile -the slight worry I have is that some people do think we do all wear kilts and have ginger hair (although we - SCOTLAND- do have the largest % of red heads in the world) as to how we talk well we do mostly have strong accents of which I am very proud (and accent not the lazyt speak of Scotland though) and I use "och" a lot . What i find offensive tho is the general representation of Scots as mean ,which we are anything but ( surveys confirm Scots spend more on their kids and for charity per head than others in the UK) and that seems to have stuck theres an element of truth in these things (all done gently in comics in my opinion the characters are usually loveable and kind) - The English (regionallly) get a bashing as well as being mean (YOrkshire) thick (Geordies) spoiled in breeds (Southerners) Yokels (West country) and the poor Irish - Hey how come the Welsh get away with it lol -Plus the Beano / Dandy comics are edited in Scotland.

[AndyB]

Were any of the Jocks redheads?

[brisey]

The Welsh don't get away with it-they are "known" for their fondness for sheep-and not in the good way.

Southerners as inbreds,didn't know that.I thought we were flash herberts with more money than sense.

Back on topic and going off topic at the same time however-watch this on youtubes and they see the comments attached.And it almost mirrors this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEgpyc3-LS8

Brisey

[Corporal Clott]

As a matter of fact one of my favourite cartoon characters was Daffy Duck ? and he was black! Although somewhat patronising and therefore offensive to black people, this Loony Tunes cartoon was mild compared to the racism that appeared in the Nazi paper, Der Sturmer. For example, the resident cartoonist, Fips, enjoyed depicting Jews as corrupt hooked nosed financiers/sexual deviants/paedophiles. He must have been using the editor, Julius Streicher as his role model because those were the things he was guilty of. You?ll also note that in times of war racism rears its ugly head. Especially if the enemy is of different ethnic origins. For example, the cartoonist Lawson Wood depicted two Japanese on the front cover of a 1943 edition of Colliers as monkeys. Another example were the Italians who were depicted as spineless ice cream vendors who surrendered at the first sounds of shooting. Of course, that was in WW2. In WW1 when they fought on our side they were depicted as our brave allies. This form of racial stereotyping was also used by the Dandy and Beano during the war.

[Cap Haggis]

Brisey - I was just meaning in comics you dont tend to see the Welsh lampooned in the way the Irish, Scots and English are, certainly in other areas I am aware of that particulas comment on the lads from the Valley's - Well inbreds maybe the wrong word chinless wonders with money - all rubbish off course - now I'm off to finish my deep fried porridge and whiskey chaser (having a light breakfast today)

[brisey]

Gorblimey Cap Haggis-I didn't take offence-sweeping generalisations are part of human nature,as much as the PC brigade hate to admit it.

I just like the right generalisation. Dick van Dyke was a role model for my generation

Just going to have lunch of Pie and Mash with loads of liquor.

[Cap Haggis]

LOL like the Dick Van Dyke comment .

[Brendan McGuire]

I don't think anybody in their right mind would use the word "nigger" as a casual part of conversation in the twenty first century. The term has always had a derogatory weight behind it and was used from a sense of superiority by the British, due to our empire building enterprises; American usage has an even nastier connotation due to the relatively modern use of slavery and the subsequent (unspoken) apartheid there. The black use of "Niggah" was an attempt to wrest control of an offensive word from a white superiority and claim cultural ownership in order to minimilise its offensiveness (an unsuccessful campaign in my view).
Having said that, to start white-washing the past in order to protect modern sensibilities, as in the demands of the Glasgow anti-racist group calling for a withdrawal of the 1939 facsimile, smells strongly and disgustingly of an Orwellian re-writing of the past. There is no point in trying to deny the past. To quote L.P. Hartley; "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". What they did then we no longer do now, but lets not close our eyes to what did go on.

[Lew Stringer]

... as in the demands of the Glasgow anti-racist group calling for a withdrawal of the 1939 facsimile, smells strongly and disgustingly of an Orwellian re-writing of the past. There is no point in trying to deny the past. To quote L.P. Hartley; "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". What they did then we no longer do now, but lets not close our eyes to what did go on.

Yes, no doubt it comes down to the UK attitude that "comics are only for kids". I would imagine the facsimile book is mainly of interest to adults. It'd certainly only appeal to people old enough to put it in context, which rules out the impressionable pre-school crowd.

Besides, even if parents are buying it for their children, it's up to the parents to explain how nasty some of our history and attitude was (and still is, quite frankly). Any adult who bought it expecting a 1939 book to have the same sensibilities of a modern Dandy annual is an idiot, but I suppose it gives the Glasgow anti-racist group free publicity.

Lew

[MikeC]

I read all the replies to this post and found some interesting and some ludicrous!I think it's time everybody grew up and stopped trying to be so politically correct.Of course I disagree that different nationalities should be slandered,but put in its historical context that's just what the comics of their time were.I seem to remember Enid Blyton's books getting similiar treatment a while back,with terms such as "Gollywog" being edited out!!!Even nursery rhymes such as "Baa Baa Black Sheep" were changed to "Rainbow Sheep".ENOUGH!Let the madness end here and now.If I find something offensive,I treat it with the contempt it deserves and ignore it,rather than waste precious time arguing the toss.I find I only insult my own intelligence by being drawn into such an arena.A lot of these terms when they were originally used probably caussed no offence at all and only cause offence in the modern era where their connotations are quite different.So treat them as the historical documents they are and if you don't like what they say,don't read them!!!!Now,what could be simpler Now as to the topic of Disabled people being made fun of,that should never have been tolerated especially as it didn't matter what colour or creed you were.I would put that down as simply a lack of education all those years ago(not academic education).

You were doing all right until then... negative attitudes towards the disabled are somehow worse than racism or religious prejudice? Hmm...

I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

And I think the book is squarely aimed at adults and collectors, and the fuss should be ignored as one Scottish newspaper publisher having a go at another. Ironic, too, that the Record, with its proud history of concentrating on sectarian news and frankly disgraceful attitude towards aylum seekers and immigrants to the present day, should raise a fuss about something which was originated 70 years ago.

[Cap Haggis]

Is it me or are we all relatively on the same page here? We agreee the "N" word should not be used, and is offensive - plus the Facsimile edition should use the word if its used in an educational and or historical situation (have to agree with the copmments on the Record, a once decent "red top" paper )Anyway enjoyed the thread lots of good comments and well put ideas, puts paid to the idea all comics fans are thicko's (of should that me "Smiffys)?

[colcool007]

Agree with Cap Haggis. This has probably been one of the most intellectual and well reasoned threads that we have had on the board in a long time.

We all look to be on the same wavelength that what happened in the past is in the past and nothing we can do will change it. The idea now is to use that past and educate those that come after us in what was appropriate then is not necessarily appropriate now and the reasons why our attitudes have changed.

[Captain Storm]

I'm sure your reply was well intentioned,Mike C,but the fact that I drew a distinction between racism and disabilty was quite self evident.I meant the fact that one was disabled was not a matter of colour but genetics.Actually the two should be treated with the respect that all people deserve.At least we have moved on from previous generations.Now let's get back to why we're all here in the first place...our love of comics!Phew,that's enough intellectualism for one day...I'm getting a headache!